Scandinavia and the World

Comments #9677161:


Baby Daddy 6 9, 9:43pm

@simval

"Actually it is. I just told you what nationalism actually is. Unfortunately, the term has been used as a smear by ignorant people or ideologues, imparting a meaning to the word that hide the reality of the ideology behind it."

No it's not - as I've shown you and everyone else reading this.
You didn't tell me what "nationalism actually is" - you told me what YOU THINK it is - but you're wrong, as I showed you.

You don't own the right to redefine words any way you like just because that suits your own agenda - the definition of words is what we have dictionaries for and that's why I linked to one and their definition of the word.

You get to hold any opinion you like, but you don't get to keep your own "alternative facts" like inventing completely different meanings for words.

That's why I'll freely admit I was sloppy in my description of multiculturalism last night (I wrote my last comment late last night before I went to bed).
As you rightly say - there is of course a difference between the blending of cultures and multiculturalism.

My point, which I didn't express very articulately, is that the blending of cultures is still the inevitable result as soon as different cultures interact.

It's always baffling to me that people proclaiming to be such staunch supporters of their own cultural identity has so little faith in it's ability to attract others.

I'm Swedish and Sweden has a lot of immigrants.
Our far-right nationalist of course make a big fuss about that, scaremongering about how Swedish culture will be completely swamped by all other cultures.
But all historical records clearly shows that in reality the direct opposite happens.
As long as the majority culture is open to the newcommers, that's what happens.

It's the immigrating culture that fairly quickly fades away under the influence of the dominant majority culture in the country the immigrants come to.

Immigrants kids go to day-care and school, they watch TV and absorbs the majority culture and they want what all the other kids their age want.
If they don't get it from their parents, who may be more conservative and set in the cultural traditions they grew up with, they themselves will give their own kids what they themselves didn't get growing up.

Integration is a generational issue to be sure, but in a historical sense we're talking about very rapid processes. Within a generation or two almost all immigrant groups are almost completely integrated into the majority culture.

What remains are some cultural traces - some of whom may also, over time, be transferred to the majority population if they are popular enough.
Most often this will be things like popular food dishes, some words or expressions, a musical influence or maybe an item of clothing.

So yes - over time all cultures will always blend together, with the dominant one in terms of numbers asserting it's domination.

What multiculturalism is about is to not force this issue, but let it occur naturally.

Letting people - who so chooses - retain old cultural traditions isn't a threat to the majority culture in any way.
That a few immigrant kids goes to some group and learns about their parents culture doesn't change the fact that they are still constantly immersed in the majority culture every other hour they interact with the society they live in.

On the other hand, following a policy of forced assimilation - which is what nationalists often promotes - instead risks leading to a backlash.
If you pressure people they will resent it and often do the exact opposite of what your intentions are, as a result of that pressure.

Furthermore, neither multiculturalism nor secularism are ideologies like you claim, they are policies - just like free speech is a policy.

And like free speech multiculturalism could just as well have been named free culture.

It's not about forcing anyone to do anything - it's about allowing people to express themselves in any way they like.

Regarding culture the end result will still be the same - cultures will always blend naturally.

Unless that is - you try to force people into predefined cultural moulds as nationalists want.
That will inevitably lead to resentment and conflict.

"The leaders of the EU project have been clear that they see borders as the "worst invention in the history of the world", and they also have claimed things like "there can be no democratic choice against European treaties"."

Please provide reputable sources for those quotes or they will be ignored.

"The goal of federalists in Europe is to destroy the nation-State, viewed as the cause of war."

And a reputable source for this claim also, or it can likewise be ignored as non-factual.

It's true many proponents of the EU cites the EU as responsible for keeping the peace in Europe (within the EU that is, of course) since the second world war.

But I've never heard any reputable critic of the EU and it's proponents claim that democratic choices doesn't trump EU treaties (in fact that's precisely what's happening now with Brexit of course), or that anyone wants to "destroy the nation-State".

It sounds like you're getting your "information" on the EU from some very extreme and conspiratorial sources.

"They would both defend their own nation's interests foremost, but they would not support dominating the other, and support the other's right to exist. It's the equivalent of defending the freedom of speech of someone else you may disagree with."

There is nothing in the history of nationalism that support these beliefs of yours.
On the contrary the ideology's short history is filled with people using nationalism as a rallying cry for war.

"Oh, and Québec, Scottish and Catalan nationalist movements have collaborated for decades, way before multiculturalism became so ascendant."

Of course they could. They are conveniently places in three widely disparate geographical areas and their national interests doesn't compete in any way at all.

Now try convincing anyone that the same is true for nationalists in Northern Ireland or in the Middle East - or any other small geographical area with many competing interests.
You can't because nationalists doesn't play nice with anyone neighboring their perceived territory.





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