'@Morning'-USA "How about that people believe that if someone isn't "Indian" enough, or "Black" enough or "Gypsy" enough, that they get cast out of multiple societies."
I'm pretty sure that Native American tribes do not use "Peter Pan" as a guide to determine who is "Indian" enough. Also, rules are set within the community, so opinion of white people is irrelevant anyway. If this community uses media produced by white people to judge who is culturally "black" or "gypsy", then they don't have that much culture to start with.
"There is a *lot* of proof that this hurts many, not just a single individual."
Many *individuals*. Also many individuals were not affected in any way.
"Now, I do have an American view of this. A privileged, white middle-class girl's view."
Doesn't that disqualify you from speaking about whether or not Native Americans or Romani were hurt or not by something?
" But in the US there is a thing about stealing. And an idea of intellectual property. "
Or rather an idea that protection is established for purpose of incentivizing innovation and economic growth, while limited by expiration date, fair use, prior art and public domain.
"If culture is defined as "the beliefs, ideas, traditions, speech, and material objects associated with a particular group of people" per Webster. Appropriation is taking something for one's own use, usually without permission."
Taking implies removing an object from possession by someone. Copying information (i.e. writing down a story or creating likeness of something) implies that object is not removed and remains in possession of owner, so property rights are not infringed. On top of that, establishing criteria for collective ownership of idea is going to be fascinating. Let's say that one day I'll claim that I'm an Apache, because I feel that way, therefore I should be afforded the right to use their language and "tribal look". Who decides whether I get that right or not?
"The damage to the Romani is a spread of the idea that there is a specific look about them that is not telling the whole story, and that it is spreading an idea that Romani cannot be educated, well-dressed, or worthwhile of knowing except as something extinct in fairy tales about magic and witches, not as current living breathing human beings. "
"Natalie Winter made a Wikitongues video on how to speak gypsy, several Romani complained ... Wikitongues did take her video down as appropriation"
So the video which was taken down is the one with wrong pronunciation or it's an additional video with claim that critics don't look "Gypsy" enough? Question about dialects still stands.
"The hurt to the Native Americans is seeing a religious artifact used for trivialized entertainment and the further push that their entire being is uncultured, uneducated, and non-people."
"Hurt" is what you feel when your leg is broken, not when someone says or draws something you don't like.
I could claim to be "hurt" along with millions of Russians by display of Red Banner and various Marxist symbols that trivialize collectivist oppression and support Red Terror. Would that get campus commies and anyone using theory of class struggle banned for cultural appropriation?
" How many wars were started just between the Protestants and the Catholics over which way to pray?"
My guess is fewer than number of wars started by political implications of Papal authority.
"To take an important religious symbol and say it's OK to make it as something that's not religious - and worse, to do it unknowingly and then once you do know just shrug your shoulders - that's hurtful to the people who believe in that religion. "
And not doing that is hurtful to some Atheists. So what?
"The more these stereotypes are spread, the more that the people in power have an easier time to believe them, and that these people then don't matter. It is part of why the Native American reservations have shrunk to a quarter of the size than they were promised."
Link between shrinking reservations and "Peter Pan" is something to be seen.
" It is why blackface entertainment has mostly died out in the US - people realized that African Americans were people and not just something to make fun of. "
Or maybe because it was a fad and it mostly passed. Use of blackface in USSR and Russia survived much longer than in US, despite official ideology being strongly opposed to racism.
"Having people believe that another person is not on-par, is not worthy of respect, and is not worthy of listening to - that is always dangerous. "
And that's why collectivist ideologies are poison. However, since collectivists will always be around, next best thing would be having some protection against control of speech, thought and association. Too bad First Amendment isn't too popular among people who tend to talk about cultural appropriation.
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'@Morning'-USA "How about that people believe that if someone isn't "Indian" enough, or "Black" enough or "Gypsy" enough, that they get cast out of multiple societies."
I'm pretty sure that Native American tribes do not use "Peter Pan" as a guide to determine who is "Indian" enough. Also, rules are set within the community, so opinion of white people is irrelevant anyway. If this community uses media produced by white people to judge who is culturally "black" or "gypsy", then they don't have that much culture to start with.
"There is a *lot* of proof that this hurts many, not just a single individual."
Many *individuals*. Also many individuals were not affected in any way.
"Now, I do have an American view of this. A privileged, white middle-class girl's view."
Doesn't that disqualify you from speaking about whether or not Native Americans or Romani were hurt or not by something?
" But in the US there is a thing about stealing. And an idea of intellectual property. "
Or rather an idea that protection is established for purpose of incentivizing innovation and economic growth, while limited by expiration date, fair use, prior art and public domain.
"If culture is defined as "the beliefs, ideas, traditions, speech, and material objects associated with a particular group of people" per Webster. Appropriation is taking something for one's own use, usually without permission."
Taking implies removing an object from possession by someone. Copying information (i.e. writing down a story or creating likeness of something) implies that object is not removed and remains in possession of owner, so property rights are not infringed. On top of that, establishing criteria for collective ownership of idea is going to be fascinating. Let's say that one day I'll claim that I'm an Apache, because I feel that way, therefore I should be afforded the right to use their language and "tribal look". Who decides whether I get that right or not?
"The damage to the Romani is a spread of the idea that there is a specific look about them that is not telling the whole story, and that it is spreading an idea that Romani cannot be educated, well-dressed, or worthwhile of knowing except as something extinct in fairy tales about magic and witches, not as current living breathing human beings. "
"Natalie Winter made a Wikitongues video on how to speak gypsy, several Romani complained ... Wikitongues did take her video down as appropriation"
So the video which was taken down is the one with wrong pronunciation or it's an additional video with claim that critics don't look "Gypsy" enough? Question about dialects still stands.
"The hurt to the Native Americans is seeing a religious artifact used for trivialized entertainment and the further push that their entire being is uncultured, uneducated, and non-people."
"Hurt" is what you feel when your leg is broken, not when someone says or draws something you don't like.
I could claim to be "hurt" along with millions of Russians by display of Red Banner and various Marxist symbols that trivialize collectivist oppression and support Red Terror. Would that get campus commies and anyone using theory of class struggle banned for cultural appropriation?
" How many wars were started just between the Protestants and the Catholics over which way to pray?"
My guess is fewer than number of wars started by political implications of Papal authority.
"To take an important religious symbol and say it's OK to make it as something that's not religious - and worse, to do it unknowingly and then once you do know just shrug your shoulders - that's hurtful to the people who believe in that religion. "
And not doing that is hurtful to some Atheists. So what?
"The more these stereotypes are spread, the more that the people in power have an easier time to believe them, and that these people then don't matter. It is part of why the Native American reservations have shrunk to a quarter of the size than they were promised."
Link between shrinking reservations and "Peter Pan" is something to be seen.
" It is why blackface entertainment has mostly died out in the US - people realized that African Americans were people and not just something to make fun of. "
Or maybe because it was a fad and it mostly passed. Use of blackface in USSR and Russia survived much longer than in US, despite official ideology being strongly opposed to racism.
"Having people believe that another person is not on-par, is not worthy of respect, and is not worthy of listening to - that is always dangerous. "
And that's why collectivist ideologies are poison. However, since collectivists will always be around, next best thing would be having some protection against control of speech, thought and association. Too bad First Amendment isn't too popular among people who tend to talk about cultural appropriation.