" "...unsuitable [police] should be put in prison for their... misconduct." They were and are, but now all officers have to face the possibility of an angry mob if they ever have to discharge their weapon."
No, in many cases they weren't and still aren't - and you not only admitted this fact in your last post, but tried to portray it as a GOOD THING!
As you wrote:
"If a few guilty cops go free and this evil saves the lives of hundreds of black young men would you burn this bridge?"
Police forces across your nation has a long history right up till and including today of harassing and even killing citizens of colour and getting away with it and not even today your first reaction is to unequivocally condemn this as wrong but you actually try to claim it makes them BETTER at their jobs!
You're willing to condone the murder of innocent civilians by the police who are sworn to protect them because you believe - without any proof what so ever - that that makes the police force more efficient. That's insane.
Any angry mobs faced by officers discharging their weapons are there because people who think like you have let other policemen clearly guilty of misconduct literally get away with murder for years on end. Eventually the people subjected to this injustice will begin to protest - and that's on YOU and people like you for not giving a fuck about the clear misconduct in the police forces as long as it doesn't effect you personally.
There are no angry mobs caused by police shootings in Sweden or any other western democratic country. Because we trust our police to do the right thing and we know that when they don't, they suffer consequences for it. In America that trust have been destroyed - not by some mild comment on the basic facts of your country by Obama - but by years of complete ignorance for the misconduct of your police forces.
But as always the political right never cares about the causes behind the consequences - they're ever only interested in the consequences. So when people protest it's always the protesters fault - never the actions that caused the protests.
There was nothing wrong with the civil rights issue or the Vietnam war in the minds of the right in the 60's - it was all just a bunch of uppity niggers and stupid hippies who didn't shut up and accept the "facts" as the right saw them.
And it was the same in pre-revolutionary France and Russia - the political right ignored the people and it ended up costing them their heads.
Just as it will in America and everywhere else where the powers that be ignores the plight of the people or a large minority of them. What form the upheaval takes can differ but it will come - it always does. And you can listen to the right who will always claim it's the fault of the people protesting - but history will, as always, show that the protests didn't come from nowhere. The actual CAUSES goes years back and where ignored until it was too late.
""The police is there to stop crime and apprehend criminals..." They no longer can do this effectively and so the inner city murder rates are soaring. The murder rate statistics are not propaganda left or right. Pretending that they do not exist is to ignore the plight of the black community. who are disproportionately the victims of violent crime."
So unless the police gets to abuse and kill citizens without consequences they can't do their job effectively? How strange then that every police force in every western nation are able to do their jobs, whilst still killing far fewer of it's own citizens?
Once again - you have NO proof of your preposterous claim that the freedom to ignore the rule of law makes for better law enforcement.
Your quite right the murder rate statistics isn't propaganda - but the version you present is. Because murder rates are NOT "soaring" in "inner cities".
It's gone up some years (which you might call soar if you want to spin that) in A FEW cities - but that's after years of decline and the over all trend - both nationally and in those cities - are a decrease in murders.
So what the statistics actually support is that you can make the claim that:
"the inner city murder rates (in some select cities) are soaring (some years, even if the rate both nationally and in those cities are still lower then years ago).
Which leads to the question why this complete demoralisation of police you claim is the effect of protests again police misconduct only effects certain cities? There is no sign of any national trend for a rise in murders - on the contrary, the national trend is a decrease.
So what you just posted was right-wing propaganda. A lie based on deliberately cherry-picking the actual statistics to make a political claim that is not supported by the factual evidence.
And now I've proven that to you - but you won't refrain from ever using this piece of propaganda again - now will you? No, you will ignore the actual facts and keep on spouting the lies you've been fed by Fox News - because you prefer them over facts.
""How is holding the police accountable..." This is the true spin here! The police were already accountable, but now because of our witchhunt, they cannot effectively police. We now drag every officer who shoots a black man through the court of public opinion. So fear keeps the police out of those neighborhoods and people die. If it is insane to despise murder and anything that increases it then certify me."
No spin - just more fact you choose to ignore.
As is well proven by years of police misconduct the police forces of your nation was not and still isn't held universally and equally accountable as is prescribed by law. You've already admitted as much yourself and tried to present that as a necessary cost of doing their jobs - which of course is complete bullshit. Once again - no other western nation accepts anything like this in their societies. The thought that the police is above the law belongs in authoritarian police states (which is what the Trumpster might be heading America for) - not a nation of laws.
And once again you try to defend your defence for police killing civilians with claims that if they weren't allow too many more would die. Cognitive dissonance once again. It's not you condoning murder that's the real problem here, since a few murders in your fantasy would stop many more others. But once again you have absolutely no proof for that. And he very idea of accepting the wrongful killing of civilians by police is - once again - insane.
Everything you complain about are CONSEQUENCES of the police's own actions and the actions of people like you who haven't held them accountable for years. Once again - this is not a problem in the rest of the western world, since police there are held more accountable then in America and the people therefore has a higher level of trust towards the police.
Learn to see cause and effect - things don't happen without a reason.
As in you Americans will all get to pay the price for the Trumpster destroying your standing in the world = effect. I know it's unfair to a lot a decent Americans but that's the laws of cause and effect - it's not my fault for pointing them out.
""..."cognitive dissonance"..." Okay? I believe some murders to be committed by police. I believe some of those police get away with the crime. I believe that these are a small number of instances and improving with surveillance technology and time. I believe we can, as some have suggested, drag more police officers in for additional review. I believe this would have a negligible effect on police misconduct and locate few problem individuals. I believe this would have a large negative result in police effectiveness. I believe that lower police effectiveness will lead to higher violent crime rates. I believe that this would not be a net benefit to society. I believe this problem is avoidable through more surveillance of the police themselves (Body Cameras), taser distribution, and greater training. I, therefore, will not drag more police officers in for additional review or make a commotion when others don't."
Really no point in writing that much when all you really say is "I'm OK with some police murdering innocent civilians and getting away with it".
Because no sane person is ever OK with ANYONE getting away with murder while you are - at least as long as the murderer is a police.
As I've stated that's not something that's accepted in any other western democratic society and it goes against even your own nations laws and principles. No wonder people are protesting when the likes of you decides policy in your nation.
My conclusion is that you suffer from cognitive dissonance and that you clearly don't understand what it is or how it works.
And since it works subconsciously and you can't see it unless you active question yourself and your beliefs my guess is you'll never see it because you'll chose to never question yourself or you beliefs - that's the easy choice. You'll just walk around as some Fox News-fed little robot, believing the comfortable lies that make you feel OK with yourself.
And when hundreds of thousands of your fellow Americans take to the streets in protest like they do now, you'll look at them just as the right-wingers of the 60's looked at the civil right- and Vietnam War protesters.
As some strange people who don't understand what a perfect nation you all live in.
But history and posterity will judge your ignorance just as it judges those that stood silently by then.
0
@lesserevil
" "...unsuitable [police] should be put in prison for their... misconduct." They were and are, but now all officers have to face the possibility of an angry mob if they ever have to discharge their weapon."
No, in many cases they weren't and still aren't - and you not only admitted this fact in your last post, but tried to portray it as a GOOD THING!
As you wrote:
"If a few guilty cops go free and this evil saves the lives of hundreds of black young men would you burn this bridge?"
Police forces across your nation has a long history right up till and including today of harassing and even killing citizens of colour and getting away with it and not even today your first reaction is to unequivocally condemn this as wrong but you actually try to claim it makes them BETTER at their jobs!
You're willing to condone the murder of innocent civilians by the police who are sworn to protect them because you believe - without any proof what so ever - that that makes the police force more efficient. That's insane.
Any angry mobs faced by officers discharging their weapons are there because people who think like you have let other policemen clearly guilty of misconduct literally get away with murder for years on end. Eventually the people subjected to this injustice will begin to protest - and that's on YOU and people like you for not giving a fuck about the clear misconduct in the police forces as long as it doesn't effect you personally.
There are no angry mobs caused by police shootings in Sweden or any other western democratic country. Because we trust our police to do the right thing and we know that when they don't, they suffer consequences for it. In America that trust have been destroyed - not by some mild comment on the basic facts of your country by Obama - but by years of complete ignorance for the misconduct of your police forces.
But as always the political right never cares about the causes behind the consequences - they're ever only interested in the consequences. So when people protest it's always the protesters fault - never the actions that caused the protests.
There was nothing wrong with the civil rights issue or the Vietnam war in the minds of the right in the 60's - it was all just a bunch of uppity niggers and stupid hippies who didn't shut up and accept the "facts" as the right saw them.
And it was the same in pre-revolutionary France and Russia - the political right ignored the people and it ended up costing them their heads.
Just as it will in America and everywhere else where the powers that be ignores the plight of the people or a large minority of them. What form the upheaval takes can differ but it will come - it always does. And you can listen to the right who will always claim it's the fault of the people protesting - but history will, as always, show that the protests didn't come from nowhere. The actual CAUSES goes years back and where ignored until it was too late.
""The police is there to stop crime and apprehend criminals..." They no longer can do this effectively and so the inner city murder rates are soaring. The murder rate statistics are not propaganda left or right. Pretending that they do not exist is to ignore the plight of the black community. who are disproportionately the victims of violent crime."
So unless the police gets to abuse and kill citizens without consequences they can't do their job effectively? How strange then that every police force in every western nation are able to do their jobs, whilst still killing far fewer of it's own citizens?
Once again - you have NO proof of your preposterous claim that the freedom to ignore the rule of law makes for better law enforcement.
Your quite right the murder rate statistics isn't propaganda - but the version you present is. Because murder rates are NOT "soaring" in "inner cities".
It's gone up some years (which you might call soar if you want to spin that) in A FEW cities - but that's after years of decline and the over all trend - both nationally and in those cities - are a decrease in murders.
So what the statistics actually support is that you can make the claim that:
"the inner city murder rates (in some select cities) are soaring (some years, even if the rate both nationally and in those cities are still lower then years ago).
Which leads to the question why this complete demoralisation of police you claim is the effect of protests again police misconduct only effects certain cities? There is no sign of any national trend for a rise in murders - on the contrary, the national trend is a decrease.
All this is covered in this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/us/murder-rate-cities.html?_r=0
it took me all of a few seconds to find online.
So what you just posted was right-wing propaganda. A lie based on deliberately cherry-picking the actual statistics to make a political claim that is not supported by the factual evidence.
And now I've proven that to you - but you won't refrain from ever using this piece of propaganda again - now will you? No, you will ignore the actual facts and keep on spouting the lies you've been fed by Fox News - because you prefer them over facts.
""How is holding the police accountable..." This is the true spin here! The police were already accountable, but now because of our witchhunt, they cannot effectively police. We now drag every officer who shoots a black man through the court of public opinion. So fear keeps the police out of those neighborhoods and people die. If it is insane to despise murder and anything that increases it then certify me."
No spin - just more fact you choose to ignore.
As is well proven by years of police misconduct the police forces of your nation was not and still isn't held universally and equally accountable as is prescribed by law. You've already admitted as much yourself and tried to present that as a necessary cost of doing their jobs - which of course is complete bullshit. Once again - no other western nation accepts anything like this in their societies. The thought that the police is above the law belongs in authoritarian police states (which is what the Trumpster might be heading America for) - not a nation of laws.
And once again you try to defend your defence for police killing civilians with claims that if they weren't allow too many more would die. Cognitive dissonance once again. It's not you condoning murder that's the real problem here, since a few murders in your fantasy would stop many more others. But once again you have absolutely no proof for that. And he very idea of accepting the wrongful killing of civilians by police is - once again - insane.
Everything you complain about are CONSEQUENCES of the police's own actions and the actions of people like you who haven't held them accountable for years. Once again - this is not a problem in the rest of the western world, since police there are held more accountable then in America and the people therefore has a higher level of trust towards the police.
Learn to see cause and effect - things don't happen without a reason.
As in you Americans will all get to pay the price for the Trumpster destroying your standing in the world = effect. I know it's unfair to a lot a decent Americans but that's the laws of cause and effect - it's not my fault for pointing them out.
""..."cognitive dissonance"..." Okay? I believe some murders to be committed by police. I believe some of those police get away with the crime. I believe that these are a small number of instances and improving with surveillance technology and time. I believe we can, as some have suggested, drag more police officers in for additional review. I believe this would have a negligible effect on police misconduct and locate few problem individuals. I believe this would have a large negative result in police effectiveness. I believe that lower police effectiveness will lead to higher violent crime rates. I believe that this would not be a net benefit to society. I believe this problem is avoidable through more surveillance of the police themselves (Body Cameras), taser distribution, and greater training. I, therefore, will not drag more police officers in for additional review or make a commotion when others don't."
Really no point in writing that much when all you really say is "I'm OK with some police murdering innocent civilians and getting away with it".
Because no sane person is ever OK with ANYONE getting away with murder while you are - at least as long as the murderer is a police.
As I've stated that's not something that's accepted in any other western democratic society and it goes against even your own nations laws and principles. No wonder people are protesting when the likes of you decides policy in your nation.
My conclusion is that you suffer from cognitive dissonance and that you clearly don't understand what it is or how it works.
And since it works subconsciously and you can't see it unless you active question yourself and your beliefs my guess is you'll never see it because you'll chose to never question yourself or you beliefs - that's the easy choice. You'll just walk around as some Fox News-fed little robot, believing the comfortable lies that make you feel OK with yourself.
And when hundreds of thousands of your fellow Americans take to the streets in protest like they do now, you'll look at them just as the right-wingers of the 60's looked at the civil right- and Vietnam War protesters.
As some strange people who don't understand what a perfect nation you all live in.
But history and posterity will judge your ignorance just as it judges those that stood silently by then.