All countries has problems.
What I corrected you on was the claim that Sweden has a "tons of issues with that" ("that" being the lies in CaliforniaAmazon:s link). We don't have that.
"And no, im not cherrypicking individual cases, but its claim based on several sources (including several people i know live in Sweden)."
You are - and you're even admitting it by referring to individual people you know.
That's not a scientific method of collecting data in any way.
We actually have experts who've spent years educating themselves and now work only studying issues like these.
Criminologists they're called - and their research don't in any way support the claims made by far-right propagandists.
"Also i know few people living in reported areas and its not rosy. Its not as bad as often stated by people who want to skew perception."
It's not rosy but it's not as bad? Which is it?
I can tell you I personally lived in one of those fantasy "no-go zones" the far-right made up for 15 years, moving from that area only 2 years ago.
In 15 years I was never subjected to a crime there, never saw a crime being committed, never heard a crime occur. No one ever bothered me, not once - for 15 years.
That's not to say that crime didn't happen there, and if we look at the statistics they probably happen there more frequently then more affluent areas - but these places are far, far from the lawless war zones the far-right propaganda portray them as.
"Is it bad enough to be dealt with?"
All crime need to be dealt with of course - no one disagrees on that point.
"Can immigrants be blamed for this? Yes and no. On one side they too are commiting crimes and by all accounts, not exactly little"
No, "immigrants" can't be blamed for anything, because "immigrants" don't commit crime - INDIVIDUALS commit crime. Some of them happen to be immigrants yes - but in a democracy ruled by laws we don't scapegoat entire groups of people because of the actions of individuals.
And if we were to begin to do so now, far and away the largest group who commit crime are men - so should we now talk about whether or not men can be blamed for crime?
Are ALL men suddenly in some way partly responsible for the crimes committed by other men - just because we also happen to be men?
No, of course not.
Because we don't scapegoat entire groups for the actions of individuals.
Regarding your belief that immigrants "are commiting crimes and by all accounts, not exactly little" - that's precisely how the far-right would like you to frame the issue.
But you could just as well say the same thing about men and it would be saying just as little.
Because whether or not a criminal also happens to be an immigrant is NOT a determining factor in why these individuals commit crime.
In fact, whether or not a person is a man is probably a way stronger indicator for his likelihood of ever committing a crime, then whether or not a person is an immigrant.
The far-right propaganda will tell you that immigrants commit crime because they are evil, violent people and some such nonsense.
While in fact, what criminologists who actually study these issues have consistently seen since the invention of the science about a century ago is that poverty, unemployment and low education level breeds certain types of crime.
So people of immigrant decent don't actually commit more crimes then Swedes suffering the same social problems - it's just that a large part of the immigrant community suffer from these social problems.
They are poorer, have lower then average income, higher unemployment rate and parts of the immigrant community has lower then average education levels.
And as all people in that situation they are, because of that situation, more likely to commit certain types of crime.
On the other hand other types of crime are almost exclusively committed by the very rich and affluent members of society - like white collar financial crimes.
Those people instead tend to not have any recent immigrant background in their family history, and they tend to have a very high education level and very well paying jobs.
But they are still just as criminal as someone who steals a car in the suburbs. Only the far-right is never interested in their crimes, because they're not immigrants.
So people are more or less likely to commit crime depending on any number of factors, but whether or not they or their parents immigrated to Sweden is NOT one of those factors.
That's the scientific consensus amongst actual experts in this field.
"which has been hinted and drawn to light, such as Peter Springare case last year (policeman who brought out crime stats). Now, i dont think Springare told 100 percent truth, but judging from swedish officials akward response, i do deduce he hit close to the mark and it IS bigger issue than public is often let on, especially because they didnt outright deny it (which in such cases is pretty common practise)."
This is just all baseless assumptions on your part.
Peter Springare is one individual with an axe to grind and he's used his position to spread his personal opinions - but he's no actual expert on the overall issue of crime.
He's a policeman who sees his little part of the issue, and like you he's drawn assumptions based on that.
But he doesn't actually have either the education or the data to say anything definitive on the larger issue.
But since he's said things the far-right like to hear, they've promoted him heavily of course.
That there are others, in a similar position to him, that says something different get's no attention what so ever from the far-right of course.
And the criminologists who actually study the entire issue are routinely accused of being part of a massive conspiracy and cover-up by the far-right - because they don't at all support the claims made by the far-right.
"At same time, its also fault of swedish goverment, because they are responsible for creating effective means for immigrants to merge into society, which in itself would solve huge portion of problem."
Sweden is actually one of the most successful countries in the world when it comes to the integration of immigrants.
Most people don't know that, because the right-wing propaganda obviously paints a completely different picture, but that's still the truth.
See for instance the MIPEX-project for more on this. This is Sweden country specific page:
One thing you might want to ask your Swedish friends about for an example of this is how much they hear about the refugees from the Balkans these days?
The story behind this is that the last time we saw a huge influx of refugees to Sweden, was during the civil war in the Balkans in 1992 when we had 84.000 refugees arrive.
Our far-right neo-fascist party the Sweden Democrats had been formed as a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic party in the late 80's, but they jumped at the chance to hate on the refugees coming from the Balkans at that time.
They would never be able to integrate into Sweden, they where poorly educated and had "violent genes" they said - and general racist bullshit like that.
Got them a lot of attention at the time and their currant party leader joined them then.
Today they don't say a word about the refugees from the Balkans, or their children - because they are now well integrated into the Swedish society.
Their level of education is the same as Swedes with no immigration roots, their unemployment level is even slightly lower.
All the hysterical fearmongering and hatred that was directed at the Balkan refugees back then was simply just prejudice and bigotry, and now when they've adjusted just fine in Sweden (those that didn't go back when the wars ended that is), the far-right no longer want to mention them at all - because their success disproves their entire bullshit propaganda.
"Right now though, seems like swedish goverment is hiding head beneath a sand instead facing issue right now, expecting drastically different cultures magically get along."
Again, that's what the far-right propaganda want people to believe - but it's not true.
As I've already shown above, Sweden is actually doing quite well in integrating immigrants into our society. Of course there are always things that can be done better, and there is plenty of serious discussion about these things - but the far-right is of course offering none of that.
All they want to do is scream constantly about how everything is a disaster and how we're all DOOMED unless we all vote for them and adopt their racist policies tomorrow.
Fortunately, so far they have no political influence and our sane parties and authorities are instead dealing with the situation in a rational way.
An example of this is the major shift that was made in immigration policy as a result of the massive wave of refugees who came in the late autumn of 2015.
You remember those 84.000 refugees from the Balkans who came in 1992? The one's who are by now integrated into Swedish society and which the far-right no longer want to talk about?
Well after they came and the wars in the Balkans ended the numbers of arriving refugees decreased rapidly.
Despite this the far-right continued screaming about "mass immigration" - because to them of course any immigrants at all are too many, regardless of the actual numbers.
They've claimed for a decade that Sweden would surely collapse completely any day now and generally tried to frighten people with claims of massive amounts of immigrants coming here - despite that not being true at all.
While all the other Swedish political parties and Swedish authorities and society at large has calmly said that no, there is no great problem associated with the refugees coming here.
Yes, it costs some money in the short run, but then they become self sufficient and contribute to society and pay their taxes like everyone else.
Some immigrants don't, some even commit crime - but so does some native born Swedes - and then we deal with them individually.
But we don't scapegoat entire groups of people based on the actions of individuals, and we don't lie and fearmonger about "mass immigration" when that's not actually a problem.
Faced with this complete rebuttal to their wild claims of impending doom from all other parts of Swedish society, the far-right did what the far-right always does when faced with opposition to their world view - they created a conspiracy theory.
We're right they said - Sweden will be completely destroyed by immigration - and what's more - ALL the other parties actually know it!
They're deliberately trying to destroy Sweden and they're lying to the public and hiding all the evidence of the massive problems only we are brave enough to talk about!
OK... So then there was the problem that the civil authorities didn't agree with the far-rights claim either?
They're ALL lying too! the far-right said - they're part of the conspiracy to destroy Sweden by mass immigration!
And the scientific community, and the media and everyone else that doesn't agree with us!
ALL part of the massive conspiracy!
So that was the situation in 2015, when the next massive wave of refugees hit Sweden.
Remember that number from 1992?
84.000 refugees in one year - the largest influx of refugees we've ever had?
Well in 2015 that number was completely swamped when 163.000 refugees arrived - and most of them in a few months in the autumn.
Here is a graph over the weekly arrival of asylum seekers - the peek in late 2015 is quite easy to spot:
Then, for the first time ever, the Swedish authorities said that this is clearly not manageable - there are simply too many people coming for us to cope with this amount.
There weren't facilities to house them all and not enough personnel to even handle all their cases - which obviously have to be reviewed and handled individually.
So then the left-green government decided - in complete unanimity with all other political parties, except the far-right Sweden Democrats, that Sweden had to tighten it's borders.
Now remember the Sweden Democrats had for a decade pushed the conspiracy theory that ALL the other political parties, and civil authorities and the academic community and media, deliberately wanted to destroy Sweden by way of mass immigration.
Now if that had been the case, all these groups would of course have rejoiced at the sight of this huge wave of refugees. "Oh, lucky us - now we can destroy Sweden so much quicker with all these refugees coming all at once!"
If what the Sweden Democrat had claimed in their propaganda had been true, no one would of course have lifted a finger to tighten the borders.
Instead everyone the Sweden Democrats had claimed was part of this massive conspiracy just responded to the changed circumstances and took the appropriate measures.
Because the truth is of course, that the Sweden Democrats hysterical claims of mass immigration that was more then Sweden could handle had never been true during all those years they made them before.
But when they finally where, that autumn of 2015, everyone responded in a rational way to the changed circumstances - and the Sweden Democrats wasn't even part of that decision.
As always they just stood on the sidelines, screaming insane things about the country being destroyed, while the grown-ups handled the actual real world issue in a rational way.
Since that decision, Sweden now has one of the strictest immigration policies in all of Europe, because we still have a huge backlog in dealing with all the people who came in 2015.
So not only our government, but all the opposition parties have responded in a rational manner to the situation.
Except for the far-right Sweden Democrats of course, who still screams about mass immigration and claims all the other parties are for unrestricted immigration.
In short, they do what they've always done and always will do - they lie.
"But thats bigger issue than just migrants, because whole swedish system, its currently running on inertia with big warning lights all across the board."
Well I have no idea what you're talking about here, but again it seems to be assumptions you've made on God knows what sources. And I really can't comment on your beliefs.
"Person i know very well and communicate very often is working as teacher there and if even 1/10th of stories are correct about whats happening just in education (in normal school), im afraid that Sweden comes to crash stop in next 20 years."
Again - not really possible to comment on any of this, it's just your beliefs based on what someone told you.
"I cannot stress how much i hope i am wrong here or that Sweden actually pulls off positive change that keeps their positive images (and justifies them) yet solves glaring issues Sweden has right now.
Facing the problem is something that needs to be done earlier rather than later"
Sweden's been around for a long time and we're not going anywhere - no matter how much the hysterical far-right screams about our impending doom.
If I'd be you I'd be more worried about Estonia, considering your Russian neighbor.
If you continue treating Estonians of Russian heritage as second class citizens in their own country, you sooner or later will create a conflict with Russia over that.
And don't be so sure the west will stick up for Estonias "right" to mistreat it's own citizens.
"So if you are worried i have been victim of propaganda, well, not really because i diversify my sources on purpose."
I've given you some sources here - you've given me none, but cited what friends of yours have said.
I'm quite comfortable with my position.
0
@Meelis13
"Actually you do have problems."
All countries has problems.
What I corrected you on was the claim that Sweden has a "tons of issues with that" ("that" being the lies in CaliforniaAmazon:s link). We don't have that.
"And no, im not cherrypicking individual cases, but its claim based on several sources (including several people i know live in Sweden)."
You are - and you're even admitting it by referring to individual people you know.
That's not a scientific method of collecting data in any way.
We actually have experts who've spent years educating themselves and now work only studying issues like these.
Criminologists they're called - and their research don't in any way support the claims made by far-right propagandists.
"Also i know few people living in reported areas and its not rosy. Its not as bad as often stated by people who want to skew perception."
It's not rosy but it's not as bad? Which is it?
I can tell you I personally lived in one of those fantasy "no-go zones" the far-right made up for 15 years, moving from that area only 2 years ago.
In 15 years I was never subjected to a crime there, never saw a crime being committed, never heard a crime occur. No one ever bothered me, not once - for 15 years.
That's not to say that crime didn't happen there, and if we look at the statistics they probably happen there more frequently then more affluent areas - but these places are far, far from the lawless war zones the far-right propaganda portray them as.
"Is it bad enough to be dealt with?"
All crime need to be dealt with of course - no one disagrees on that point.
"Can immigrants be blamed for this? Yes and no. On one side they too are commiting crimes and by all accounts, not exactly little"
No, "immigrants" can't be blamed for anything, because "immigrants" don't commit crime - INDIVIDUALS commit crime. Some of them happen to be immigrants yes - but in a democracy ruled by laws we don't scapegoat entire groups of people because of the actions of individuals.
And if we were to begin to do so now, far and away the largest group who commit crime are men - so should we now talk about whether or not men can be blamed for crime?
Are ALL men suddenly in some way partly responsible for the crimes committed by other men - just because we also happen to be men?
No, of course not.
Because we don't scapegoat entire groups for the actions of individuals.
Regarding your belief that immigrants "are commiting crimes and by all accounts, not exactly little" - that's precisely how the far-right would like you to frame the issue.
But you could just as well say the same thing about men and it would be saying just as little.
Because whether or not a criminal also happens to be an immigrant is NOT a determining factor in why these individuals commit crime.
In fact, whether or not a person is a man is probably a way stronger indicator for his likelihood of ever committing a crime, then whether or not a person is an immigrant.
The far-right propaganda will tell you that immigrants commit crime because they are evil, violent people and some such nonsense.
While in fact, what criminologists who actually study these issues have consistently seen since the invention of the science about a century ago is that poverty, unemployment and low education level breeds certain types of crime.
So people of immigrant decent don't actually commit more crimes then Swedes suffering the same social problems - it's just that a large part of the immigrant community suffer from these social problems.
They are poorer, have lower then average income, higher unemployment rate and parts of the immigrant community has lower then average education levels.
And as all people in that situation they are, because of that situation, more likely to commit certain types of crime.
On the other hand other types of crime are almost exclusively committed by the very rich and affluent members of society - like white collar financial crimes.
Those people instead tend to not have any recent immigrant background in their family history, and they tend to have a very high education level and very well paying jobs.
But they are still just as criminal as someone who steals a car in the suburbs. Only the far-right is never interested in their crimes, because they're not immigrants.
So people are more or less likely to commit crime depending on any number of factors, but whether or not they or their parents immigrated to Sweden is NOT one of those factors.
That's the scientific consensus amongst actual experts in this field.
"which has been hinted and drawn to light, such as Peter Springare case last year (policeman who brought out crime stats). Now, i dont think Springare told 100 percent truth, but judging from swedish officials akward response, i do deduce he hit close to the mark and it IS bigger issue than public is often let on, especially because they didnt outright deny it (which in such cases is pretty common practise)."
This is just all baseless assumptions on your part.
Peter Springare is one individual with an axe to grind and he's used his position to spread his personal opinions - but he's no actual expert on the overall issue of crime.
He's a policeman who sees his little part of the issue, and like you he's drawn assumptions based on that.
But he doesn't actually have either the education or the data to say anything definitive on the larger issue.
But since he's said things the far-right like to hear, they've promoted him heavily of course.
That there are others, in a similar position to him, that says something different get's no attention what so ever from the far-right of course.
And the criminologists who actually study the entire issue are routinely accused of being part of a massive conspiracy and cover-up by the far-right - because they don't at all support the claims made by the far-right.
"At same time, its also fault of swedish goverment, because they are responsible for creating effective means for immigrants to merge into society, which in itself would solve huge portion of problem."
Sweden is actually one of the most successful countries in the world when it comes to the integration of immigrants.
Most people don't know that, because the right-wing propaganda obviously paints a completely different picture, but that's still the truth.
See for instance the MIPEX-project for more on this. This is Sweden country specific page:
http://www.mipex.eu/sweden
One thing you might want to ask your Swedish friends about for an example of this is how much they hear about the refugees from the Balkans these days?
The story behind this is that the last time we saw a huge influx of refugees to Sweden, was during the civil war in the Balkans in 1992 when we had 84.000 refugees arrive.
Our far-right neo-fascist party the Sweden Democrats had been formed as a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic party in the late 80's, but they jumped at the chance to hate on the refugees coming from the Balkans at that time.
They would never be able to integrate into Sweden, they where poorly educated and had "violent genes" they said - and general racist bullshit like that.
Got them a lot of attention at the time and their currant party leader joined them then.
Today they don't say a word about the refugees from the Balkans, or their children - because they are now well integrated into the Swedish society.
Their level of education is the same as Swedes with no immigration roots, their unemployment level is even slightly lower.
All the hysterical fearmongering and hatred that was directed at the Balkan refugees back then was simply just prejudice and bigotry, and now when they've adjusted just fine in Sweden (those that didn't go back when the wars ended that is), the far-right no longer want to mention them at all - because their success disproves their entire bullshit propaganda.
"Right now though, seems like swedish goverment is hiding head beneath a sand instead facing issue right now, expecting drastically different cultures magically get along."
Again, that's what the far-right propaganda want people to believe - but it's not true.
As I've already shown above, Sweden is actually doing quite well in integrating immigrants into our society. Of course there are always things that can be done better, and there is plenty of serious discussion about these things - but the far-right is of course offering none of that.
All they want to do is scream constantly about how everything is a disaster and how we're all DOOMED unless we all vote for them and adopt their racist policies tomorrow.
Fortunately, so far they have no political influence and our sane parties and authorities are instead dealing with the situation in a rational way.
An example of this is the major shift that was made in immigration policy as a result of the massive wave of refugees who came in the late autumn of 2015.
You remember those 84.000 refugees from the Balkans who came in 1992? The one's who are by now integrated into Swedish society and which the far-right no longer want to talk about?
Well after they came and the wars in the Balkans ended the numbers of arriving refugees decreased rapidly.
Despite this the far-right continued screaming about "mass immigration" - because to them of course any immigrants at all are too many, regardless of the actual numbers.
They've claimed for a decade that Sweden would surely collapse completely any day now and generally tried to frighten people with claims of massive amounts of immigrants coming here - despite that not being true at all.
While all the other Swedish political parties and Swedish authorities and society at large has calmly said that no, there is no great problem associated with the refugees coming here.
Yes, it costs some money in the short run, but then they become self sufficient and contribute to society and pay their taxes like everyone else.
Some immigrants don't, some even commit crime - but so does some native born Swedes - and then we deal with them individually.
But we don't scapegoat entire groups of people based on the actions of individuals, and we don't lie and fearmonger about "mass immigration" when that's not actually a problem.
Faced with this complete rebuttal to their wild claims of impending doom from all other parts of Swedish society, the far-right did what the far-right always does when faced with opposition to their world view - they created a conspiracy theory.
We're right they said - Sweden will be completely destroyed by immigration - and what's more - ALL the other parties actually know it!
They're deliberately trying to destroy Sweden and they're lying to the public and hiding all the evidence of the massive problems only we are brave enough to talk about!
OK... So then there was the problem that the civil authorities didn't agree with the far-rights claim either?
They're ALL lying too! the far-right said - they're part of the conspiracy to destroy Sweden by mass immigration!
And the scientific community, and the media and everyone else that doesn't agree with us!
ALL part of the massive conspiracy!
So that was the situation in 2015, when the next massive wave of refugees hit Sweden.
Remember that number from 1992?
84.000 refugees in one year - the largest influx of refugees we've ever had?
Well in 2015 that number was completely swamped when 163.000 refugees arrived - and most of them in a few months in the autumn.
Here is a graph over the weekly arrival of asylum seekers - the peek in late 2015 is quite easy to spot:
https://www.migrationsverket.se/images/18.4cb46070161462db1131c9/1524481830388/Graf.png
Then, for the first time ever, the Swedish authorities said that this is clearly not manageable - there are simply too many people coming for us to cope with this amount.
There weren't facilities to house them all and not enough personnel to even handle all their cases - which obviously have to be reviewed and handled individually.
So then the left-green government decided - in complete unanimity with all other political parties, except the far-right Sweden Democrats, that Sweden had to tighten it's borders.
Now remember the Sweden Democrats had for a decade pushed the conspiracy theory that ALL the other political parties, and civil authorities and the academic community and media, deliberately wanted to destroy Sweden by way of mass immigration.
Now if that had been the case, all these groups would of course have rejoiced at the sight of this huge wave of refugees. "Oh, lucky us - now we can destroy Sweden so much quicker with all these refugees coming all at once!"
If what the Sweden Democrat had claimed in their propaganda had been true, no one would of course have lifted a finger to tighten the borders.
Instead everyone the Sweden Democrats had claimed was part of this massive conspiracy just responded to the changed circumstances and took the appropriate measures.
Because the truth is of course, that the Sweden Democrats hysterical claims of mass immigration that was more then Sweden could handle had never been true during all those years they made them before.
But when they finally where, that autumn of 2015, everyone responded in a rational way to the changed circumstances - and the Sweden Democrats wasn't even part of that decision.
As always they just stood on the sidelines, screaming insane things about the country being destroyed, while the grown-ups handled the actual real world issue in a rational way.
Since that decision, Sweden now has one of the strictest immigration policies in all of Europe, because we still have a huge backlog in dealing with all the people who came in 2015.
So not only our government, but all the opposition parties have responded in a rational manner to the situation.
Except for the far-right Sweden Democrats of course, who still screams about mass immigration and claims all the other parties are for unrestricted immigration.
In short, they do what they've always done and always will do - they lie.
"But thats bigger issue than just migrants, because whole swedish system, its currently running on inertia with big warning lights all across the board."
Well I have no idea what you're talking about here, but again it seems to be assumptions you've made on God knows what sources. And I really can't comment on your beliefs.
"Person i know very well and communicate very often is working as teacher there and if even 1/10th of stories are correct about whats happening just in education (in normal school), im afraid that Sweden comes to crash stop in next 20 years."
Again - not really possible to comment on any of this, it's just your beliefs based on what someone told you.
"I cannot stress how much i hope i am wrong here or that Sweden actually pulls off positive change that keeps their positive images (and justifies them) yet solves glaring issues Sweden has right now.
Facing the problem is something that needs to be done earlier rather than later"
Sweden's been around for a long time and we're not going anywhere - no matter how much the hysterical far-right screams about our impending doom.
If I'd be you I'd be more worried about Estonia, considering your Russian neighbor.
If you continue treating Estonians of Russian heritage as second class citizens in their own country, you sooner or later will create a conflict with Russia over that.
And don't be so sure the west will stick up for Estonias "right" to mistreat it's own citizens.
"So if you are worried i have been victim of propaganda, well, not really because i diversify my sources on purpose."
I've given you some sources here - you've given me none, but cited what friends of yours have said.
I'm quite comfortable with my position.