"That's why you keep saying that I'm whining about not getting everything the hard line Britexers wanted. Despite that being both false and nothing to do with what I'm saying."
But you are. You keep harping on about a magical deal that simply doesn't exist. For instance:
"We could have had an amical divorce to the mutual benefit of both sides but their determined on making Britain pay for deciding to leave. Hence the continuing demands for every increasing subsidies and refusal to negotiate the terms for leaving."
None of that is true. You're simply spouting the pro-Brexiter's usual fantasy about how everything could be wonderful for everyone, if only the evil EU wasn't so evil.
But none of that is true.
You and many other Brexiter's simply believe in a fantasy world where fantasy things should happen - but as EVERYONE not actually trying to sell Brexit to you before the referendum bloody well told you - NONE OF THAT IS TRUE!
"Your stuck in a rut of your own blind ignorance and will continuing repeating that rather than look at the facts."
I'm the only one of us that's even supported any of my claims with sources. All you ever do is repeat your belief in things over and over again like a broken record - but that obviously proves none of what you claim.
So let's not pretend I'm the one ignoring facts here, shall we?
"On the issue of Gibraltar I called it imperialist because you initially said you see the EU supporting Spain's claim, which is based solely on the "we want it and we don't give a damn what the people living there think". You have back-tracked on that by saying that the EU wouldn't support the ignoring of the rights of the people, which is a definite improvement on what you said before but is certainly a reversal of what you said before."
Nope, no "back-track" or "reversal" in anything I've written - not in any way.
You just assumed - just like you still do - that Spain's claim to Gibraltar "is based solely on the "we want it and we don't give a damn what the people living there think"."
I've asked you to prove that Spain has ever expressed that view - you have failed to do so, but keep claiming it to be a fact none the less.
I don't even think Spain actual has expressed that view to begin with, but I also pointed out that the EU certainly never would support such a stance anyway.
What I did write before that was that:
"If Britain leaves the EU she will become a counterpart to the EU. Then obviously the EU:s position will change from now trying to mediate a conflict over Gibraltar within the EU-family, to one where the EU obviously will back the only nation in the EU - Spain."
Which you've since tried to twisted into the EU or me supporting non-democratic action - but that's still only based on YOUR UNPROVEN claim that Spain has expressed a willingness to force a decision on the citizens of Gibraltar, against their will.
And even if you sometime in the future (if you ever bother doing any real work) would be able to prove your first assumption (that Spain has expressed such views as you claim), that still doesn't prove your second assumption that the EU would ever support such a stance.
The EU-collective will obviously back it's fellow member Spain in a conflict with Britain over Gibraltar, yes - but not to any end of course.
Obviously the 26 other members of the EU wouldn't suddenly be OK with the annexation of land by one country from another, in conflict between the two and disregarding what the people living there felt about the matter.
That would be like Putin invading Crimea - and the very idea on your part that the EU member states would ever agree to something like that shows what kind of anti-EU propaganda you've been consuming.
So again - you're not actually arguing the issues based on an understanding of the real world, but you speak on them only from your fantasy version of it.
The one in which Spain has demanded the return of Gibraltar without any consideration for the people living there, and where I and the EU where perfectly willing to back such demands (until I apparently back-tracked, scared off by a strongly worded reply from you?).
But again - none of that is true, of course.
And with you living in this parallel fantasy world of Brexiter imagination, it's obviously hard to have a serious discussion.
Because you feel I'm condescending to you when I tell you this of course, and I see that your "solutions" aren't actually based on reality, but fantasy.
Now please try to break out of this fantasy by using some very basic reason:
You where promised by the Brexit campaigners that negotiating Brexit would be a breeze - because the rest of Europe would come crawling on it's bare knees to get continued access to the British market.
German manufacturers would be desperate to sell their cars to you and pressure their government to be able to do so, Italian producers to sell it's prosecco would do the same - according to Johnson.
The big European nations business and national interest would force the EU to give Britain continued access to the EU's open market and customs union for no cost at all to you (if you wanted it), total rights to block any and all immigration and still give Britain full rights to cut any trade deals it wanted with any non-EU nations, the Brexiters promised.
Well that isn't happening - now is it?
So OBVIOUSLY the basic premise you where sold - Britain's incredible value to the other European nations - weren't actually true.
OR, to keep that illusion alive, you would have to believe that not only European national governments, but also business leaders, are actively working AGAINST their own economical interest - and why would they ever do that?
To "punish" Britain for wanting to leave the EU?
Now if you think German car manufacturers or Italian spirit producers would take an unnecessary economic hit simply to punish British voters for supporting Brexit, then I can't help you any further.
Then you're so far gone into fantasyland that reason no longer works, I'm afraid.
OBVIOUSLY reality is more complicated then the black and white Brexit fantasy you where sold - but if you refuse to see that, no one can force it on you.
Either way, what the Brexit campaigners promised you still won't happen - just like EVERYONE but them has been telling you for years by now.
So the only question now is whether you will ever accept the truth of WHY things didn't end up like the Brexit campaigners promised you, or if you'll go to you death believing in a fantasy that was never real to begin with?
Here's a further little dose of reality for you. Might help to see what those German business leaders and politicians actually think about Brexit:
(EDIT: Unfortunetly I'm having problems with the pay wall on the Financial Times web site. I can read the article when I find it via Google, but the links I post here are blocked by the pay wall.
So try either of these links - maybe they'll work for you, or just do a google search for the name of the article: "Germans see Brexit as a UK own goal" and if needed add "FT" or "Financial Times" to find it - that should work at least.)
0
@stevep59
"That's why you keep saying that I'm whining about not getting everything the hard line Britexers wanted. Despite that being both false and nothing to do with what I'm saying."
But you are. You keep harping on about a magical deal that simply doesn't exist. For instance:
"We could have had an amical divorce to the mutual benefit of both sides but their determined on making Britain pay for deciding to leave. Hence the continuing demands for every increasing subsidies and refusal to negotiate the terms for leaving."
None of that is true. You're simply spouting the pro-Brexiter's usual fantasy about how everything could be wonderful for everyone, if only the evil EU wasn't so evil.
But none of that is true.
You and many other Brexiter's simply believe in a fantasy world where fantasy things should happen - but as EVERYONE not actually trying to sell Brexit to you before the referendum bloody well told you - NONE OF THAT IS TRUE!
"Your stuck in a rut of your own blind ignorance and will continuing repeating that rather than look at the facts."
I'm the only one of us that's even supported any of my claims with sources. All you ever do is repeat your belief in things over and over again like a broken record - but that obviously proves none of what you claim.
So let's not pretend I'm the one ignoring facts here, shall we?
"On the issue of Gibraltar I called it imperialist because you initially said you see the EU supporting Spain's claim, which is based solely on the "we want it and we don't give a damn what the people living there think". You have back-tracked on that by saying that the EU wouldn't support the ignoring of the rights of the people, which is a definite improvement on what you said before but is certainly a reversal of what you said before."
Nope, no "back-track" or "reversal" in anything I've written - not in any way.
You just assumed - just like you still do - that Spain's claim to Gibraltar "is based solely on the "we want it and we don't give a damn what the people living there think"."
I've asked you to prove that Spain has ever expressed that view - you have failed to do so, but keep claiming it to be a fact none the less.
I don't even think Spain actual has expressed that view to begin with, but I also pointed out that the EU certainly never would support such a stance anyway.
What I did write before that was that:
"If Britain leaves the EU she will become a counterpart to the EU. Then obviously the EU:s position will change from now trying to mediate a conflict over Gibraltar within the EU-family, to one where the EU obviously will back the only nation in the EU - Spain."
Which you've since tried to twisted into the EU or me supporting non-democratic action - but that's still only based on YOUR UNPROVEN claim that Spain has expressed a willingness to force a decision on the citizens of Gibraltar, against their will.
And even if you sometime in the future (if you ever bother doing any real work) would be able to prove your first assumption (that Spain has expressed such views as you claim), that still doesn't prove your second assumption that the EU would ever support such a stance.
The EU-collective will obviously back it's fellow member Spain in a conflict with Britain over Gibraltar, yes - but not to any end of course.
Obviously the 26 other members of the EU wouldn't suddenly be OK with the annexation of land by one country from another, in conflict between the two and disregarding what the people living there felt about the matter.
That would be like Putin invading Crimea - and the very idea on your part that the EU member states would ever agree to something like that shows what kind of anti-EU propaganda you've been consuming.
So again - you're not actually arguing the issues based on an understanding of the real world, but you speak on them only from your fantasy version of it.
The one in which Spain has demanded the return of Gibraltar without any consideration for the people living there, and where I and the EU where perfectly willing to back such demands (until I apparently back-tracked, scared off by a strongly worded reply from you?).
But again - none of that is true, of course.
And with you living in this parallel fantasy world of Brexiter imagination, it's obviously hard to have a serious discussion.
Because you feel I'm condescending to you when I tell you this of course, and I see that your "solutions" aren't actually based on reality, but fantasy.
Now please try to break out of this fantasy by using some very basic reason:
You where promised by the Brexit campaigners that negotiating Brexit would be a breeze - because the rest of Europe would come crawling on it's bare knees to get continued access to the British market.
German manufacturers would be desperate to sell their cars to you and pressure their government to be able to do so, Italian producers to sell it's prosecco would do the same - according to Johnson.
The big European nations business and national interest would force the EU to give Britain continued access to the EU's open market and customs union for no cost at all to you (if you wanted it), total rights to block any and all immigration and still give Britain full rights to cut any trade deals it wanted with any non-EU nations, the Brexiters promised.
Well that isn't happening - now is it?
So OBVIOUSLY the basic premise you where sold - Britain's incredible value to the other European nations - weren't actually true.
OR, to keep that illusion alive, you would have to believe that not only European national governments, but also business leaders, are actively working AGAINST their own economical interest - and why would they ever do that?
To "punish" Britain for wanting to leave the EU?
Now if you think German car manufacturers or Italian spirit producers would take an unnecessary economic hit simply to punish British voters for supporting Brexit, then I can't help you any further.
Then you're so far gone into fantasyland that reason no longer works, I'm afraid.
OBVIOUSLY reality is more complicated then the black and white Brexit fantasy you where sold - but if you refuse to see that, no one can force it on you.
Either way, what the Brexit campaigners promised you still won't happen - just like EVERYONE but them has been telling you for years by now.
So the only question now is whether you will ever accept the truth of WHY things didn't end up like the Brexit campaigners promised you, or if you'll go to you death believing in a fantasy that was never real to begin with?
Here's a further little dose of reality for you. Might help to see what those German business leaders and politicians actually think about Brexit:
(EDIT: Unfortunetly I'm having problems with the pay wall on the Financial Times web site. I can read the article when I find it via Google, but the links I post here are blocked by the pay wall.
So try either of these links - maybe they'll work for you, or just do a google search for the name of the article: "Germans see Brexit as a UK own goal" and if needed add "FT" or "Financial Times" to find it - that should work at least.)
https://www.ft.com/content/ff475478-4d1e-11e8-8a8e-22951a2d8493
https://twitter.com/FT/status/991278628561477633