"a) I pointed out that the current stance of the EU for a hard exit will cause problems for a lot of people inside the EU."
and there you immediately drove right of the fact road into fantasy land...
Because the EU obviously doesn't have a stance FOR any version of Brexit!
They are not the ones who initiated or are steering the process at all - they are only responding to the stance (or rather lack thereof) the May-government is presenting as the latest version of Brexit they're pushing this week.
And regardless of which fantasy version the May-government is asking for, the EU simply replies according to the exact same principles that was made clear years ago:
No, Britain does not get to pick and chose which rules it has to follow if it wishes to retain access to the EU's benefits in some way.
The open market and the customs union contains both benefits and obligations for the non-EU nations that wish to take part in them and Britain will have to follow the same rules as everyone else.
Which includes paying for the access she wishes to have.
All of this was pointed out repeatedly before the referendum, and should come as no surprise now.
The EU certainly isn't FOR a hard Brexit - it's never been FOR any kind of Brexit at all.
The only ones that are FOR a hard Brexit are some on the British side, who in turn are in a constant battle with others on the British side over what kind of Brexit Britain should seek.
And some of these others will - like you now - happily claim the EU is FOR the same hard Brexit, just because it doesn't give them the fantasy deal they're asking for.
Which is just yet another attempt by Brexiters to blame the EU for the consequences of their own actions.
Because the simple truth is that the fantasy versions of wonderful deals beneficial to all the Brexiters sold Brexit with to the British public where never real to begin with.
And now that that's becoming obvious, the people who made those empty promises obviously don't want to be held responsible for them, so they do what they've always done - they blame the evil EU for not fulfilling their own empty promises.
While EVERYONE not actually trying to sell Brexit on the British public before the referendum clearly said that these where empty promises at the time.
It's like me telling you that if you walk down to you local bank, they'll hand you a thousand pounds just for showing up, while everyone else told you I'm obviously just lying to you.
Well you trust me and walk down to the bank, where the teller obviously tell you you're not getting a penny from them - while I stand beside you and cry that they're only not fulfilling my promise because they're evil and want to punish you for showing the plucky courage to walk down to the bank and demand money.
At which point you keep believing me and whine loudly about the money you feel you are now owed by the bank.
While the tellers and the other customers in the bank look at the two of us like we're not quite sane.
You can stand there whining for the rest of your life if you like - but you're still not getting any money.
Just like EVERYONE else but me told you in this story - I obviously lied to you. But your refusal to acknowledge that fact still won't make my lie come true. Nothing ever will.
Regarding your obsession with claiming that I've claimed you get all your ideas from the right-wing press - that's not actually true, of course.
So I'll just - once again - repeat what I already answered on this:
"Regarding why you're saying things I've made far fewer assumptions then you've claimed. As I pointed out above I've never actually claimed you where "brainwashed by the right wing press" for instance.
But it's clear your understanding of the issue is based on the kind of nonsense eurosceptic propaganda that lead Gove to defend rejection of the facts with the memorable quote "I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts"."
The point is obviously that it doesn't matter exactly where you got your ideas on this issue. What matters are that they are not in any way resembling reality, but that you - like all other pro-Brexiters I've encountered online - walk around believing in a fantasy version of the world and you resent any information that doesn't conform to that fantasy.
"You just can not accept anyone can disagree with you and may have a point."
But you have yet to present a single point that's based on reality, concerning Brexit!
All you do is claim things you can't prove and reject (or ignore) fact that I have proven - because you're only interested in holding on to your fantasy version of the issue, unfortunately.
"On Spain as YOU say "Then obviously the EU:s position will change from now trying to mediate a conflict over Gibraltar within the EU-family, to one where the EU obviously will back the only nation in the EU - Spain". You don't say they will back Spain if they think the Spanish have a legitimate claim but they will back Spain regardless. I pointed out that that lacks any moral restriction. At that point you did back-track."
No I didn't. You just assumed too much - because you believe in a fantasy world where Spain, the EU or I would ever "lack any moral restriction" and would be perfectly fine handling Gibraltar the way Putin handled the Crimea.
Rational people, basing their understand on the real world, understands that neither Spain nor the EU would ever do such a thing - but you don't, because you live in a fantasy world where the nations on the continent are apparently all evil imperialists who's only goal is to punish Britain for voting for Brexit.
"You could have come back and clarified your statement by saying you phased it wrongly but that would have admitted you made even the smallest mistake and you don't have the self-respect to do that so once again you take an aggressive response, claiming I was seeking to misrepresent you."
But I didn't phrase it wrongly - not at all. The EU certainly will back their only member Spain in the conflict over Gibraltar against Britain - just like I said.
But not to any end of course.
Which rational people understand, but you either didn't - because you live in a fantasy world where there are no limits to what other nations might do to hurt Britain - or you did and still deliberately sought to misrepresent what I said, yes.
Personally I think the first is more likely - I don't think you're deliberately trying to misunderstand what I'm saying - it's just that you're entire view of the world is so messed up by decades of eurosceptic propaganda, that you now seem perfectly willing to believe anything about any other nation.
The world (and especially Europe) from the point of view of Brexiters seem filled with countries all just out to hurt Britain as much as possible.
And when that's your understanding of the world your fear and conspiracy theories kind of makes sense of course.
But none of that is real, and it leads you into making the most faulty assumptions about other countries actions or possible future actions, as well as what people like me actually mean when we talk about these issues.
I'm sure you've read or heard people say they or someone else would "back someone" a thousand times in your life, without immediately jumping to the conclusion that that means doing ANYTHING to support the entity in question - no matter how illegal or immoral.
People saying they back a football team for instance - I'm sure you don't imagine that means they'd be perfectly fine with murdering the opposing teams players to win an important game.
Because rational people of course understand that there are limits to which one goes in support of something. That doesn't need to be mentioned, it's just automatically understood that that's the case.
But since you believe that Spain would be willing to ignore the will of the people of Gibraltar and basically invade the enclave like Putin did to Crimea (something you still haven't been able to prove that Spain has actually expressed a willingness to do, by the way), you also assumes the EU backing them must mean they would be willing to support such action and that that's what I meant and I support too.
But that was simply a misconception on your part. Not only do I not think Spain has ever expressed a willingness to do such a thing, neither has the EU or I of course.
But when I point this out to you, in your mind this becomes a "back-track" - but that's from a position I never expressed and you only imagined.
And you did so only because you live in a fantasy world where you believe all manner of things that aren't actually real - when it comes to Brexit.
Which makes your discussions with other people, who aren't living in the same fantasy, wrought with difficulty as you make faulty assumptions about what they're actually saying and their intentions all the time.
"My problem with you is your insistence that anyone who disagrees with you is at least an ignorant bigot misread by anti-EU propaganda and at worse evil. You have no concept that you could be mistaken/misinformed yourself, let alone that another view could be valid. Hence the way you keep failing to address the points I raise."
I've never said any of the things you claim I believe about you - except that you are misread, which you clearly are.
I've seen openly racists remarks, threats and all manner of violent rhetoric from pro-Brexiters online - but I've never accused you of any of that, nor do I think you share or support those views.
I certainly don't think all Britons that support Brexit are racist or evil - certainly not.
But you are all ill informed and thus much of what you believe and say about the issue has no relation to reality - which means that you keep making "points" that aren't actually relevant at all.
Because as long as your basis for viewing the issue is a fantasy, the points you think you make will unfortunately continue to be nonsense - that's just the way it is.
Complaining about the EU holding a stance FOR a hard Brexit when the EU clearly doesn't even want Brexit in ANY form is obviously nonsense.
Talking about being a believer in a "Free Britain", when Britain obviously never been anything but free in the EU, is nonsense.
Talking about the EU wanting to "punish" Britain, when they are simply adhering to the same rules and principles that guide their interaction with all other nations, is nonsense.
Wishfully talking about the magical deal that would benefit everyone when no such deal exists is also nonsense.
and so on and so forth.
Compare that to the question of internal UK politics and the NHS, which we talked about in the beginning, where your understanding of the issue is clearly based on the actual reality of the issue, as far as I've been able to see anyway.
There it seems we could actually understand each others positions - because we spoke based on an if not completely mutual, at least very similar understanding of the issue.
But on Brexit, you and other pro-Brexiters online are of in La La land, dreaming about things that are clearly never going to happen.
Which makes rational discussion almost impossible.
0
@stevep59
"Lets look at some facts."
Yes, by all means let's!
"a) I pointed out that the current stance of the EU for a hard exit will cause problems for a lot of people inside the EU."
and there you immediately drove right of the fact road into fantasy land...
Because the EU obviously doesn't have a stance FOR any version of Brexit!
They are not the ones who initiated or are steering the process at all - they are only responding to the stance (or rather lack thereof) the May-government is presenting as the latest version of Brexit they're pushing this week.
And regardless of which fantasy version the May-government is asking for, the EU simply replies according to the exact same principles that was made clear years ago:
No, Britain does not get to pick and chose which rules it has to follow if it wishes to retain access to the EU's benefits in some way.
The open market and the customs union contains both benefits and obligations for the non-EU nations that wish to take part in them and Britain will have to follow the same rules as everyone else.
Which includes paying for the access she wishes to have.
All of this was pointed out repeatedly before the referendum, and should come as no surprise now.
The EU certainly isn't FOR a hard Brexit - it's never been FOR any kind of Brexit at all.
The only ones that are FOR a hard Brexit are some on the British side, who in turn are in a constant battle with others on the British side over what kind of Brexit Britain should seek.
And some of these others will - like you now - happily claim the EU is FOR the same hard Brexit, just because it doesn't give them the fantasy deal they're asking for.
Which is just yet another attempt by Brexiters to blame the EU for the consequences of their own actions.
Because the simple truth is that the fantasy versions of wonderful deals beneficial to all the Brexiters sold Brexit with to the British public where never real to begin with.
And now that that's becoming obvious, the people who made those empty promises obviously don't want to be held responsible for them, so they do what they've always done - they blame the evil EU for not fulfilling their own empty promises.
While EVERYONE not actually trying to sell Brexit on the British public before the referendum clearly said that these where empty promises at the time.
It's like me telling you that if you walk down to you local bank, they'll hand you a thousand pounds just for showing up, while everyone else told you I'm obviously just lying to you.
Well you trust me and walk down to the bank, where the teller obviously tell you you're not getting a penny from them - while I stand beside you and cry that they're only not fulfilling my promise because they're evil and want to punish you for showing the plucky courage to walk down to the bank and demand money.
At which point you keep believing me and whine loudly about the money you feel you are now owed by the bank.
While the tellers and the other customers in the bank look at the two of us like we're not quite sane.
You can stand there whining for the rest of your life if you like - but you're still not getting any money.
Just like EVERYONE else but me told you in this story - I obviously lied to you. But your refusal to acknowledge that fact still won't make my lie come true. Nothing ever will.
Regarding your obsession with claiming that I've claimed you get all your ideas from the right-wing press - that's not actually true, of course.
So I'll just - once again - repeat what I already answered on this:
"Regarding why you're saying things I've made far fewer assumptions then you've claimed. As I pointed out above I've never actually claimed you where "brainwashed by the right wing press" for instance.
But it's clear your understanding of the issue is based on the kind of nonsense eurosceptic propaganda that lead Gove to defend rejection of the facts with the memorable quote "I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts"."
The point is obviously that it doesn't matter exactly where you got your ideas on this issue. What matters are that they are not in any way resembling reality, but that you - like all other pro-Brexiters I've encountered online - walk around believing in a fantasy version of the world and you resent any information that doesn't conform to that fantasy.
"You just can not accept anyone can disagree with you and may have a point."
But you have yet to present a single point that's based on reality, concerning Brexit!
All you do is claim things you can't prove and reject (or ignore) fact that I have proven - because you're only interested in holding on to your fantasy version of the issue, unfortunately.
"On Spain as YOU say "Then obviously the EU:s position will change from now trying to mediate a conflict over Gibraltar within the EU-family, to one where the EU obviously will back the only nation in the EU - Spain". You don't say they will back Spain if they think the Spanish have a legitimate claim but they will back Spain regardless. I pointed out that that lacks any moral restriction. At that point you did back-track."
No I didn't. You just assumed too much - because you believe in a fantasy world where Spain, the EU or I would ever "lack any moral restriction" and would be perfectly fine handling Gibraltar the way Putin handled the Crimea.
Rational people, basing their understand on the real world, understands that neither Spain nor the EU would ever do such a thing - but you don't, because you live in a fantasy world where the nations on the continent are apparently all evil imperialists who's only goal is to punish Britain for voting for Brexit.
"You could have come back and clarified your statement by saying you phased it wrongly but that would have admitted you made even the smallest mistake and you don't have the self-respect to do that so once again you take an aggressive response, claiming I was seeking to misrepresent you."
But I didn't phrase it wrongly - not at all. The EU certainly will back their only member Spain in the conflict over Gibraltar against Britain - just like I said.
But not to any end of course.
Which rational people understand, but you either didn't - because you live in a fantasy world where there are no limits to what other nations might do to hurt Britain - or you did and still deliberately sought to misrepresent what I said, yes.
Personally I think the first is more likely - I don't think you're deliberately trying to misunderstand what I'm saying - it's just that you're entire view of the world is so messed up by decades of eurosceptic propaganda, that you now seem perfectly willing to believe anything about any other nation.
The world (and especially Europe) from the point of view of Brexiters seem filled with countries all just out to hurt Britain as much as possible.
And when that's your understanding of the world your fear and conspiracy theories kind of makes sense of course.
But none of that is real, and it leads you into making the most faulty assumptions about other countries actions or possible future actions, as well as what people like me actually mean when we talk about these issues.
I'm sure you've read or heard people say they or someone else would "back someone" a thousand times in your life, without immediately jumping to the conclusion that that means doing ANYTHING to support the entity in question - no matter how illegal or immoral.
People saying they back a football team for instance - I'm sure you don't imagine that means they'd be perfectly fine with murdering the opposing teams players to win an important game.
Because rational people of course understand that there are limits to which one goes in support of something. That doesn't need to be mentioned, it's just automatically understood that that's the case.
But since you believe that Spain would be willing to ignore the will of the people of Gibraltar and basically invade the enclave like Putin did to Crimea (something you still haven't been able to prove that Spain has actually expressed a willingness to do, by the way), you also assumes the EU backing them must mean they would be willing to support such action and that that's what I meant and I support too.
But that was simply a misconception on your part. Not only do I not think Spain has ever expressed a willingness to do such a thing, neither has the EU or I of course.
But when I point this out to you, in your mind this becomes a "back-track" - but that's from a position I never expressed and you only imagined.
And you did so only because you live in a fantasy world where you believe all manner of things that aren't actually real - when it comes to Brexit.
Which makes your discussions with other people, who aren't living in the same fantasy, wrought with difficulty as you make faulty assumptions about what they're actually saying and their intentions all the time.
"My problem with you is your insistence that anyone who disagrees with you is at least an ignorant bigot misread by anti-EU propaganda and at worse evil. You have no concept that you could be mistaken/misinformed yourself, let alone that another view could be valid. Hence the way you keep failing to address the points I raise."
I've never said any of the things you claim I believe about you - except that you are misread, which you clearly are.
I've seen openly racists remarks, threats and all manner of violent rhetoric from pro-Brexiters online - but I've never accused you of any of that, nor do I think you share or support those views.
I certainly don't think all Britons that support Brexit are racist or evil - certainly not.
But you are all ill informed and thus much of what you believe and say about the issue has no relation to reality - which means that you keep making "points" that aren't actually relevant at all.
Because as long as your basis for viewing the issue is a fantasy, the points you think you make will unfortunately continue to be nonsense - that's just the way it is.
Complaining about the EU holding a stance FOR a hard Brexit when the EU clearly doesn't even want Brexit in ANY form is obviously nonsense.
Talking about being a believer in a "Free Britain", when Britain obviously never been anything but free in the EU, is nonsense.
Talking about the EU wanting to "punish" Britain, when they are simply adhering to the same rules and principles that guide their interaction with all other nations, is nonsense.
Wishfully talking about the magical deal that would benefit everyone when no such deal exists is also nonsense.
and so on and so forth.
Compare that to the question of internal UK politics and the NHS, which we talked about in the beginning, where your understanding of the issue is clearly based on the actual reality of the issue, as far as I've been able to see anyway.
There it seems we could actually understand each others positions - because we spoke based on an if not completely mutual, at least very similar understanding of the issue.
But on Brexit, you and other pro-Brexiters online are of in La La land, dreaming about things that are clearly never going to happen.
Which makes rational discussion almost impossible.