"The same old broken record. You still work under the delusion that I'm mislead by right wing propaganda when I have repeatedly made clear I an NOT. Until you accept this we will get nowhere."
You're starting to become a caricature of yourself at this point. I've reposted the exact same reply to this false claim by you several times already, but let's see if the fifth time I post the exact same text you might finally understand it:
"Regarding why you're saying things I've made far fewer assumptions then you've claimed. As I pointed out above I've never actually claimed you where "brainwashed by the right wing press" for instance.
But it's clear your understanding of the issue is based on the kind of nonsense eurosceptic propaganda that lead Gove to defend rejection of the facts with the memorable quote "I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts"."
Which means that:
"The point is obviously that it doesn't matter exactly where you got your ideas on this issue. What matters are that they are not in any way resembling reality, but that you - like all other pro-Brexiters I've encountered online - walk around believing in a fantasy version of the world and you resent any information that doesn't conform to that fantasy."
In the last post you talked about EU's stance for hard Brexit - which is obviously completely false, as the EU isn't FOR Brexit in any shape or form.
You've made several equally nonsensical claims about the state of affairs that are simply delusional - all because you live in a fantasy world of pro-Brexiter creation.
Now you continue listing off your grievances - all based on your fantasy world not lining up with reality.
The EU "dictate terms", decides what will be discussed, have been cherry picking from the start and so on.
While I'd probably disagree with the you on the things you claim the EU "cherry pick" things, and that they "dictate terms", I understand what you're basically upset about is that the negotiations aren't going like you expected them to.
And yes, the EU are running circles around the British in the negotiations - but anyone understanding the facts knew that would happen. Because the EU has a much stronger hand in the negotiations - which they where always going to have, because the EU is much stronger then Britain. Which again - EVERYONE who bothered to study the facts knew where the case.
I know - that's not what you where told in Brexiter fantasy world. But you simply have to accept that that fantasy world doesn't matter to anyone in the real world.
The EU has a much stronger hand in the negotiations then Britain does, because they frankly stand to lose a hell of a lot less by Britain leaving then Britain does.
Again - I know you don't believe that - because that's not what the fantasy world tells you - but in the real world these are the facts:
Britain leaving the EU was a shit idea for many different reasons - a big one of which is that Britain has basically NO leverage in the negotiations as Britain stands to lose much, much more then the EU does if they don't get some kind of access to the common market.
Yes, Britain can threaten to shot the EU in the foot. But the bullet will then ricochet straight into Britain's brain - which makes for a pretty lousy threat.
Which means that the EU doesn't have to give Britain any preferential treatment compared to any other non-EU member state that wants that access.
Which is obviously the fair thing anyway, to begin with.
If you're a member you pay the membership fees and gets access - if you're not a member you get to pay for the access you want.
But in Brexiter fantasy world, you where told Britain was going to get basically anything she asked for for free - but that was always just a lie.
Which EVERYONE not campaigning for Brexit told you.
So the real problem isn't that the May-government are useless (but they are of course - and that isn't helping of course) - the real problem is the very notion that Britain could ever have left the EU and gotten a better deal as a non-member then she had as a member was ALWAYS a pipe-dream to begin with.
Even the strongest possible British government, with the most comprehensive plan and the best negotiations couldn't have made Brexit a better deal for Britain (in relation to the EU) then she had as a member - because it's obviously not in the EU's best interest to ever give Britain such a deal!
You talked about "an amical divorce to the mutual benefit of both sides" - but no such deal has ever existed. Both sides will lose - it's only a matter who will lose the most.
And with the EU holding the stronger hand, in the real world that was ALWAYS going to be Britain.
But not in Brexiter fantasy world of course - there everything would just work out for the best for everyone, or at least for Britain. There was obviously no way Brexit could be a bad idea in Brexiter fantasy world, so all facts that pointed to that conclusion must of course be ignored.
Just as all the experts that plainly said this before the referendum must be - as Gove said.
Well the experts where obviously right all along, and the Brexiter fantasy world just that - a figment of imagination.
Britain's negotiation position is shit, and the May-government mishandling of the negotiations aren't helping either.
Britain hasn't even left yet, but as you know if you read the link I recommended above, Britain has already dropped two spots from third to fifth biggest trading partner for Germany.
European business is already calculating with Britain leaving the common market and there is no uproar of German business leaders, desperately trying to get Merkel to use her influence to give Britain a sweeter deal.
Nor is there from business leaders or trade unions or regular citizens in any other EU member state.
Because the EU's position has been completely clear since long before the referendum - and it's a position supported by virtually all EU-citizens:
If Britain wishes to leave, she's of course free to do so. Once she triggers article 50, negotiations will start, and as the stronger party, the EU will obviously set the order for such talks.
First Britain's future obligations to the EU must be resolved (things like future pensions for people like Farage for instance), before each and every topic is decided in order.
Only when all of the negotiations for Britain leaving the EU are done can negotiations for Britain, then as a non-member, seeking future access to the EU's open market start.
Again, this is of course not at all the order or topics promised in the Brexiter fantasy world where Britain would just ignore all prior obligations, not pay the EU a penny, and then briskly move on to cutting new great deals with both the EU and the rest of the world - while still being a member.
Well none of that happened of course - because it was all just a fantasy to begin with - as EVERYONE not actually campaigning for Brexit told you.
Instead Britain has so far basically been forced to follow the negotiation plan made by the EU, and she's been forced to concede point after point in the negotiations.
Which again was entirely expected because of Britain's week hand in the negotiations.
So again - it doesn't matter that you and the other Brexiters are upset that the "evil" EU didn't behave like you wanted them to - because your assumptions where always based on a fantasy that was never going to happen.
Look at what all those experts Gove brushed aside so easily said before the referendum instead, and you'll see that all of what's happening now was foretold to you.
This is in no way surprising or unfair by the EU - it's the inevitable result of a much weaker party trying to squeeze concessions from a much stronger party - it was simply never going to happen, in the real world.
Britain's ONLY chance to get a slightly better deal (but still not as good, and certainly not better then as a member), was to try and play on the other EU-member states positive view of Britain (yes, I know you think the rest of Europe hates Britain and only tries to thwart her in every way - but that's never actually been the case in the real world - only in the Brexiter's fantasy version).
But May cocked that up from the very beginning, by instead trying to play chicken with the EU, threatening to turn Britain into a tax haven to steal European investments if the EU didn't give her what she wanted, and deploying "Mr. Brexit" Boris Johnson as possibly the worst foreign secretary of all time.
A role in which he has so far (apart from many other blunders) managed to compare different EU member states and the whole of the EU to Nazi Germany on no less then three separate occasion (it may be more as well, but I remember three instances).
So Britain getting that slightly better deal because it played the "why can't we all be friends card?" is probably not even possible now.
0
@stevep59
"The same old broken record. You still work under the delusion that I'm mislead by right wing propaganda when I have repeatedly made clear I an NOT. Until you accept this we will get nowhere."
You're starting to become a caricature of yourself at this point. I've reposted the exact same reply to this false claim by you several times already, but let's see if the fifth time I post the exact same text you might finally understand it:
"Regarding why you're saying things I've made far fewer assumptions then you've claimed. As I pointed out above I've never actually claimed you where "brainwashed by the right wing press" for instance.
But it's clear your understanding of the issue is based on the kind of nonsense eurosceptic propaganda that lead Gove to defend rejection of the facts with the memorable quote "I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts"."
Which means that:
"The point is obviously that it doesn't matter exactly where you got your ideas on this issue. What matters are that they are not in any way resembling reality, but that you - like all other pro-Brexiters I've encountered online - walk around believing in a fantasy version of the world and you resent any information that doesn't conform to that fantasy."
In the last post you talked about EU's stance for hard Brexit - which is obviously completely false, as the EU isn't FOR Brexit in any shape or form.
You've made several equally nonsensical claims about the state of affairs that are simply delusional - all because you live in a fantasy world of pro-Brexiter creation.
Now you continue listing off your grievances - all based on your fantasy world not lining up with reality.
The EU "dictate terms", decides what will be discussed, have been cherry picking from the start and so on.
While I'd probably disagree with the you on the things you claim the EU "cherry pick" things, and that they "dictate terms", I understand what you're basically upset about is that the negotiations aren't going like you expected them to.
And yes, the EU are running circles around the British in the negotiations - but anyone understanding the facts knew that would happen. Because the EU has a much stronger hand in the negotiations - which they where always going to have, because the EU is much stronger then Britain. Which again - EVERYONE who bothered to study the facts knew where the case.
I know - that's not what you where told in Brexiter fantasy world. But you simply have to accept that that fantasy world doesn't matter to anyone in the real world.
The EU has a much stronger hand in the negotiations then Britain does, because they frankly stand to lose a hell of a lot less by Britain leaving then Britain does.
Again - I know you don't believe that - because that's not what the fantasy world tells you - but in the real world these are the facts:
Britain leaving the EU was a shit idea for many different reasons - a big one of which is that Britain has basically NO leverage in the negotiations as Britain stands to lose much, much more then the EU does if they don't get some kind of access to the common market.
Yes, Britain can threaten to shot the EU in the foot. But the bullet will then ricochet straight into Britain's brain - which makes for a pretty lousy threat.
Which means that the EU doesn't have to give Britain any preferential treatment compared to any other non-EU member state that wants that access.
Which is obviously the fair thing anyway, to begin with.
If you're a member you pay the membership fees and gets access - if you're not a member you get to pay for the access you want.
But in Brexiter fantasy world, you where told Britain was going to get basically anything she asked for for free - but that was always just a lie.
Which EVERYONE not campaigning for Brexit told you.
So the real problem isn't that the May-government are useless (but they are of course - and that isn't helping of course) - the real problem is the very notion that Britain could ever have left the EU and gotten a better deal as a non-member then she had as a member was ALWAYS a pipe-dream to begin with.
Even the strongest possible British government, with the most comprehensive plan and the best negotiations couldn't have made Brexit a better deal for Britain (in relation to the EU) then she had as a member - because it's obviously not in the EU's best interest to ever give Britain such a deal!
You talked about "an amical divorce to the mutual benefit of both sides" - but no such deal has ever existed. Both sides will lose - it's only a matter who will lose the most.
And with the EU holding the stronger hand, in the real world that was ALWAYS going to be Britain.
But not in Brexiter fantasy world of course - there everything would just work out for the best for everyone, or at least for Britain. There was obviously no way Brexit could be a bad idea in Brexiter fantasy world, so all facts that pointed to that conclusion must of course be ignored.
Just as all the experts that plainly said this before the referendum must be - as Gove said.
Well the experts where obviously right all along, and the Brexiter fantasy world just that - a figment of imagination.
Britain's negotiation position is shit, and the May-government mishandling of the negotiations aren't helping either.
Britain hasn't even left yet, but as you know if you read the link I recommended above, Britain has already dropped two spots from third to fifth biggest trading partner for Germany.
European business is already calculating with Britain leaving the common market and there is no uproar of German business leaders, desperately trying to get Merkel to use her influence to give Britain a sweeter deal.
Nor is there from business leaders or trade unions or regular citizens in any other EU member state.
Because the EU's position has been completely clear since long before the referendum - and it's a position supported by virtually all EU-citizens:
If Britain wishes to leave, she's of course free to do so. Once she triggers article 50, negotiations will start, and as the stronger party, the EU will obviously set the order for such talks.
First Britain's future obligations to the EU must be resolved (things like future pensions for people like Farage for instance), before each and every topic is decided in order.
Only when all of the negotiations for Britain leaving the EU are done can negotiations for Britain, then as a non-member, seeking future access to the EU's open market start.
Again, this is of course not at all the order or topics promised in the Brexiter fantasy world where Britain would just ignore all prior obligations, not pay the EU a penny, and then briskly move on to cutting new great deals with both the EU and the rest of the world - while still being a member.
Well none of that happened of course - because it was all just a fantasy to begin with - as EVERYONE not actually campaigning for Brexit told you.
Instead Britain has so far basically been forced to follow the negotiation plan made by the EU, and she's been forced to concede point after point in the negotiations.
Which again was entirely expected because of Britain's week hand in the negotiations.
So again - it doesn't matter that you and the other Brexiters are upset that the "evil" EU didn't behave like you wanted them to - because your assumptions where always based on a fantasy that was never going to happen.
Look at what all those experts Gove brushed aside so easily said before the referendum instead, and you'll see that all of what's happening now was foretold to you.
This is in no way surprising or unfair by the EU - it's the inevitable result of a much weaker party trying to squeeze concessions from a much stronger party - it was simply never going to happen, in the real world.
Britain's ONLY chance to get a slightly better deal (but still not as good, and certainly not better then as a member), was to try and play on the other EU-member states positive view of Britain (yes, I know you think the rest of Europe hates Britain and only tries to thwart her in every way - but that's never actually been the case in the real world - only in the Brexiter's fantasy version).
But May cocked that up from the very beginning, by instead trying to play chicken with the EU, threatening to turn Britain into a tax haven to steal European investments if the EU didn't give her what she wanted, and deploying "Mr. Brexit" Boris Johnson as possibly the worst foreign secretary of all time.
A role in which he has so far (apart from many other blunders) managed to compare different EU member states and the whole of the EU to Nazi Germany on no less then three separate occasion (it may be more as well, but I remember three instances).
So Britain getting that slightly better deal because it played the "why can't we all be friends card?" is probably not even possible now.