"The problem is you have a 1D manta that any criticism of the EU is based on being mislead by anti-EU propaganda. As such you trot this out regardless of what I say. We could argue about how accurate or not this viewpoint is but it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the points I've actually been making in this thread."
You keep claiming that, but the problem is that everything you've claimed has been completely wrong - and you've also been unable to provide sources for any of it!
You may wish to make this a question about me having some preconceived notion and refusing to listen to reasonable critique - but the problem is that you offer NO such critique!
All you do is repeat nonsense talking points from the pro-Brexit side which has no relations to reality, and which are only viewed as reasonable in the fantasy world of Brexit creation.
But despite me telling you this over and over, and asking you to prove ANYTHING of what you claim, you just ignore that and continue playing the same tune like a broken record.
"I have not mentioned anything about what Britain [whatever that means as there are various viewpoints] wants but why the current path being taken by the EU mis-leaders is bad for a lot of people in the EU!"
And as I have told you repeatedly, the actions of the EU leaders in the Brexit negotiations are in fact not at all bad for the people of the EU!
On the contrary - if the EU's leaders where to give Britain the sweetheart deal the Brexit campaigners promised Britons to get you to vote for it, the EU's leaders would be severely punished by their own constituents who certainly don't want to see Britain being handed concessions they'll have to pay!
Because that's what this is about - as I've repeatedly told you, and as anyone not actively trying to sell Brexit to the British people has also said.
There was never any magical Brexit deal that was good for everyone. Quite the contrary - Brexit will be bad for both Britain and the EU and only good for Putin.
But when the losses of Brexit will be divvied up between Britain and the EU, Britons are fools if they for one second expect the EU to take on one Euro more of that loss then it absolutely have too!
And obviously Britain's negotiators and the May-government has the exact same stance from their side. Both sides will obviously always try to get the best deal for themselves.
And the problem is, that quite contrary to the Brexit fantasy world where Britain would get everything she wanted, Britain's negotiation position in leaving the EU is in fact shit - which is why in the real world Britain was ALWAYS going to be the party who made the worst deal on Brexit.
Which again is precisely why EVERYONE not actively trying to sell Brexit on the British people said so loud and clear before the referendum!
"Don't do this - it's a shit deal for Britain!"
But of course you and a slim majority of other Britons didn't listen to the experts, but instead to the likes of Farage, Gove and Johnson - and now Britain unfortunately have to suffer trough the consequences of your decision.
You can try blaming what you call the "pro-EU bigots and fanatics" all you want - but it doesn't change the fact that nobody forces you to vote the way you did and that Brexit was sold to the British people with a bunch of lies that where actually very easy to see through if one only bothered to check.
Like the widely reported fact that Gove's best argument to counter all of the countless institutions that warned against Brexit was that infamous crap about people being tired of experts.
Anyone who wanted to know how this would end could know. It's just that a slim majority of Britons unfortunately didn't want to know, but preferred to live in the fantasy world of Brexiter creation.
And discussing this with you, it seems obvious that's where you prefer to remain - rather then to admit the unpleasant fact that "oops, whoopsy, we might have fucked this up totally!".
Which is understandable from a psychological point of view - people tend to not want to admit mistakes they've made - but it makes for ridiculous arguing from you when you just ignore everything I write, can't prove a single thing you claim, and just keep repeating the same debunked fantasies over and over.
It might sound good in your mind - but it's not convincing anyone else, I can tell you.
0
@stevep59
"The problem is you have a 1D manta that any criticism of the EU is based on being mislead by anti-EU propaganda. As such you trot this out regardless of what I say. We could argue about how accurate or not this viewpoint is but it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the points I've actually been making in this thread."
You keep claiming that, but the problem is that everything you've claimed has been completely wrong - and you've also been unable to provide sources for any of it!
You may wish to make this a question about me having some preconceived notion and refusing to listen to reasonable critique - but the problem is that you offer NO such critique!
All you do is repeat nonsense talking points from the pro-Brexit side which has no relations to reality, and which are only viewed as reasonable in the fantasy world of Brexit creation.
But despite me telling you this over and over, and asking you to prove ANYTHING of what you claim, you just ignore that and continue playing the same tune like a broken record.
"I have not mentioned anything about what Britain [whatever that means as there are various viewpoints] wants but why the current path being taken by the EU mis-leaders is bad for a lot of people in the EU!"
And as I have told you repeatedly, the actions of the EU leaders in the Brexit negotiations are in fact not at all bad for the people of the EU!
On the contrary - if the EU's leaders where to give Britain the sweetheart deal the Brexit campaigners promised Britons to get you to vote for it, the EU's leaders would be severely punished by their own constituents who certainly don't want to see Britain being handed concessions they'll have to pay!
Because that's what this is about - as I've repeatedly told you, and as anyone not actively trying to sell Brexit to the British people has also said.
There was never any magical Brexit deal that was good for everyone. Quite the contrary - Brexit will be bad for both Britain and the EU and only good for Putin.
But when the losses of Brexit will be divvied up between Britain and the EU, Britons are fools if they for one second expect the EU to take on one Euro more of that loss then it absolutely have too!
And obviously Britain's negotiators and the May-government has the exact same stance from their side. Both sides will obviously always try to get the best deal for themselves.
And the problem is, that quite contrary to the Brexit fantasy world where Britain would get everything she wanted, Britain's negotiation position in leaving the EU is in fact shit - which is why in the real world Britain was ALWAYS going to be the party who made the worst deal on Brexit.
Which again is precisely why EVERYONE not actively trying to sell Brexit on the British people said so loud and clear before the referendum!
"Don't do this - it's a shit deal for Britain!"
But of course you and a slim majority of other Britons didn't listen to the experts, but instead to the likes of Farage, Gove and Johnson - and now Britain unfortunately have to suffer trough the consequences of your decision.
You can try blaming what you call the "pro-EU bigots and fanatics" all you want - but it doesn't change the fact that nobody forces you to vote the way you did and that Brexit was sold to the British people with a bunch of lies that where actually very easy to see through if one only bothered to check.
Like the widely reported fact that Gove's best argument to counter all of the countless institutions that warned against Brexit was that infamous crap about people being tired of experts.
Anyone who wanted to know how this would end could know. It's just that a slim majority of Britons unfortunately didn't want to know, but preferred to live in the fantasy world of Brexiter creation.
And discussing this with you, it seems obvious that's where you prefer to remain - rather then to admit the unpleasant fact that "oops, whoopsy, we might have fucked this up totally!".
Which is understandable from a psychological point of view - people tend to not want to admit mistakes they've made - but it makes for ridiculous arguing from you when you just ignore everything I write, can't prove a single thing you claim, and just keep repeating the same debunked fantasies over and over.
It might sound good in your mind - but it's not convincing anyone else, I can tell you.