London Conventions
Kapow: May 19 & 20, MCM Expo: May 25, 26 & 27
Kapow: May 19 & 20, MCM Expo: May 25, 26 & 27
Sister Sweden and Finland
Scandinavian Poster
A large poster, showing the Scandinavian boys, on thick Gloss Art 170gsm paper.
Party Crasher
Oh how often I have been asked by Estonians, “Where is Estonia? We’re a Nordic country too!”
Problem is, the other Nordics doesn’t think so.
I asked around what the stereotypes for the Baltic countries were, and the overall answer was, “Very depressed people who wear grey and live in grey houses”
Estonia have a good relationship with Finland, which is why he doesn’t hide, but he doesn’t consider her a Nordic either which is why he doesn’t let her in. The Finland’ish hat is because Estonians are seen as being very much like Finns by the other Baltics.
3rd August 2010
7:39am Mon 7th May #8326916
i have never thougth of estonia(everytime i hear ``estonia´´ i think of the boat and that´s a bit irritating) as a part of the nordics but really why shouldn´t it be a part. it is very alike sweden, latvia and especially finland.( it is don´t that alike denmark, germany or norway. it is more alike finland then latvia.) pepole think of them as baltic not because anybody would look down on them(because we don´t) but because that is what we learned when we were little.
i have never thougth of estonia(everytime i hear ``estonia´´ i think of the boat and that´s a bit irritating) as a part of the nordics but really why shouldn´t it be a part. it is very alike sweden, latvia and especially finland.( it is don´t that alike denmark, germany or norway. it is more alike finland then latvia.) pepole think of them as baltic not because anybody would look down on them(because we don´t) but because that is what we learned when we were little.
3:05am Mon 7th May #8326715
Supernordic Estonians are the only who think that estonians are Nordic
The discussion sompletes everything
Supernordic Estonians are the only who think that estonians are Nordic
The discussion sompletes everything
9:36am Fri 4th May #8322597
@ThorsomeTarmukas To your previous response to my comment: Yes. That is pretty much our feelings in a nutshell. It's the natural supernordic Estonia-hate that comes with all true nordics.
@ThorsomeTarmukas To your previous response to my comment: Yes. That is pretty much our feelings in a nutshell. It's the natural supernordic Estonia-hate that comes with all true nordics.
9:29am Thu 3rd May #8321249
@ThorsomeTarmukas
"Do you suggest that Russia should take both all the glory and all the blame? That would make you a man of integrity."
In fact, Russia has taken responsibility for USSR (at least considering debts and such). Does that make me a man of integrity?
Really, talking of "blame" on a country-wide scale is nonsensical to me. Who are you going to blame for annexing Estonia? Russian people? They have nothing to do with that. Current Russian government? Same story, they didn't do that, and could not prevent that even if they had a time machine. You can blame a former Soviet regime, that's true, but there is no point in doing it, actually: this regime is gone, so you'll be whipping the sea.
Now "taking the glory". You see, formally it is as nonsensical as taking the blame, because USSR is gone. Yet, the idea of "glorious past" is used by many if not all governments to raise the nation's spirits and patriotic feelings. Just point at any country on the map, and you may bet its government encourages the idea of "glorious past". So you cannot deny Russia the right to use the same trick.
"And I still do not believe that there is actually any significant finger pointing in children's books."
I didn't say there was any finger pointing there. And in fact there was none, at least none that I can remember.
"So, I would really like to know in more detail what you have discovered in Estonian children's tales".
I read them long, long ago, so I don't remember the details. What I clearly remember is the air of estonians always being oppressed and commanded.
"So small, but already russian!"
Do you estonians really say such things often? Hm.
If so, you should be aware that such attitude is bad not only for russians whom you make uncomfortable by such implied insults, but also for you. I've been in areas where national tensions were high, and I assure you: provocative behaviour on one side and hurt pride on the other result in long-lasting hatred and conflict. Both sides are hurt as the result, and hurt severely. You will not be able to "fix" such a conflict easily, it will smoke and burn for decades.
"Like Estonian russians besting Russian russians in PISA tests, both using russian language - that means that Estonia currently gives the best russian language primary education in the world."
You see, if tests show anything useful at all is a subject of a very hot debate.
Tests are formalized and somewhat detached from reality, and that is one of their biggest problems. The second big problem is that you can train kids for specific types of tests. Trained kids perform better simply because they are accustomed doing tests, not because they actually know better.
@ThorsomeTarmukas
"Do you suggest that Russia should take both all the glory and all the blame? That would make you a man of integrity."
In fact, Russia has taken responsibility for USSR (at least considering debts and such). Does that make me a man of integrity?
Really, talking of "blame" on a country-wide scale is nonsensical to me. Who are you going to blame for annexing Estonia? Russian people? They have nothing to do with that. Current Russian government? Same story, they didn't do that, and could not prevent that even if they had a time machine. You can blame a former Soviet regime, that's true, but there is no point in doing it, actually: this regime is gone, so you'll be whipping the sea.
Now "taking the glory". You see, formally it is as nonsensical as taking the blame, because USSR is gone. Yet, the idea of "glorious past" is used by many if not all governments to raise the nation's spirits and patriotic feelings. Just point at any country on the map, and you may bet its government encourages the idea of "glorious past". So you cannot deny Russia the right to use the same trick.
"And I still do not believe that there is actually any significant finger pointing in children's books."
I didn't say there was any finger pointing there. And in fact there was none, at least none that I can remember.
"So, I would really like to know in more detail what you have discovered in Estonian children's tales".
I read them long, long ago, so I don't remember the details. What I clearly remember is the air of estonians always being oppressed and commanded.
"So small, but already russian!"
Do you estonians really say such things often? Hm.
If so, you should be aware that such attitude is bad not only for russians whom you make uncomfortable by such implied insults, but also for you. I've been in areas where national tensions were high, and I assure you: provocative behaviour on one side and hurt pride on the other result in long-lasting hatred and conflict. Both sides are hurt as the result, and hurt severely. You will not be able to "fix" such a conflict easily, it will smoke and burn for decades.
"Like Estonian russians besting Russian russians in PISA tests, both using russian language - that means that Estonia currently gives the best russian language primary education in the world."
You see, if tests show anything useful at all is a subject of a very hot debate.
Tests are formalized and somewhat detached from reality, and that is one of their biggest problems. The second big problem is that you can train kids for specific types of tests. Trained kids perform better simply because they are accustomed doing tests, not because they actually know better.
4:02pm Wed 2nd May #8320483
@Pechestelo
"Speaking strictly to the laws, there was no Russia per se, yes. Yet the USSR was generally (and informally) referred to as "Russia" even at that time, so there would be no misunderstanding whatsoever."
There is always a possibility of misunderstanding.
As I have seen, Russia usually likes to take all the glory and USSR takes all the blame. On the other hand, USSR was created by Soviet Russia.
Do you suggest that Russia should take both all the glory and all the blame? That would make you a man of integrity.
"I am not debating the peacefulness of contemporary finns and estonians, yet I am against wild generalizations (I am for more reasonable ones )."
OK. Understood.
But then you should also understand where such finger pointing comes from. And I still do not believe that there is actually any significant finger pointing in children's books.
That reminds me of a grownup saying about a russian speaking child who behaves badly:
"So small, but already russian!"
"Nii väike, aga juba venelane!"
I am sorry if you find it offending.
I am not even sure whether that saying originates from estonians.
To be honest, perhaps one should say: "So small, but already soviet!", but then we would be back to square one - whether one should equate USSR with Russia.
There is another oft used slogan among estonians about russians:
"Feed the wolf as much as you want, a wolf always looks towards the forest."
"Toida hunti palju tahad, hunt vaatab ikka metsa poole."
So, I would really like to know in more detail what you have discovered in Estonian children's tales, and how it differs from tales of any other culture.
For example, there is a tale about a Kolumats, but as I recall that tale has nothing to do with swedes :-)
Did you expect to see tales with Estonian kings ruling with an iron fist over vast areas across the world?
Or do you suggest that these Estonian tales somehow misrepresent or skew the actual Estonian history?
[this "always keeping up to neighbours" attitude seems to be somehow related to national character and history.]
Could be. Estonians do not feel the need to be number 1 in everything, we are happy if we are among the leaders :-)
We don't want to be subpar either.
And it feels always good to best the neighbour and rub it in from time to time. Like Estonian russians besting Russian russians in PISA tests, both using russian language - that means that Estonia currently gives the best russian language primary education in the world. Why doesn't Russia try a similar feat with maris or mordvins or udmurts or tatars in their native languages.
@Pechestelo
"Speaking strictly to the laws, there was no Russia per se, yes. Yet the USSR was generally (and informally) referred to as "Russia" even at that time, so there would be no misunderstanding whatsoever."
There is always a possibility of misunderstanding.
As I have seen, Russia usually likes to take all the glory and USSR takes all the blame. On the other hand, USSR was created by Soviet Russia.
Do you suggest that Russia should take both all the glory and all the blame? That would make you a man of integrity.
"I am not debating the peacefulness of contemporary finns and estonians, yet I am against wild generalizations (I am for more reasonable ones )."
OK. Understood.
But then you should also understand where such finger pointing comes from. And I still do not believe that there is actually any significant finger pointing in children's books.
That reminds me of a grownup saying about a russian speaking child who behaves badly:
"So small, but already russian!"
"Nii väike, aga juba venelane!"
I am sorry if you find it offending.
I am not even sure whether that saying originates from estonians.
To be honest, perhaps one should say: "So small, but already soviet!", but then we would be back to square one - whether one should equate USSR with Russia.
There is another oft used slogan among estonians about russians:
"Feed the wolf as much as you want, a wolf always looks towards the forest."
"Toida hunti palju tahad, hunt vaatab ikka metsa poole."
So, I would really like to know in more detail what you have discovered in Estonian children's tales, and how it differs from tales of any other culture.
For example, there is a tale about a Kolumats, but as I recall that tale has nothing to do with swedes :-)
Did you expect to see tales with Estonian kings ruling with an iron fist over vast areas across the world?
Or do you suggest that these Estonian tales somehow misrepresent or skew the actual Estonian history?
[this "always keeping up to neighbours" attitude seems to be somehow related to national character and history.]
Could be. Estonians do not feel the need to be number 1 in everything, we are happy if we are among the leaders :-)
We don't want to be subpar either.
And it feels always good to best the neighbour and rub it in from time to time. Like Estonian russians besting Russian russians in PISA tests, both using russian language - that means that Estonia currently gives the best russian language primary education in the world. Why doesn't Russia try a similar feat with maris or mordvins or udmurts or tatars in their native languages.
7:36am Wed 2nd May #8319646
i think estonia´s bigger cities are very alike sweden´s bigger cities(but not gouthenburgh(i have no idee how you spell it but we spell it `göteborg´)).
i think estonia´s bigger cities are very alike sweden´s bigger cities(but not gouthenburgh(i have no idee how you spell it but we spell it `göteborg´)).
3:11am Wed 2nd May #8319468
@ThorsomeTarmukas
Speaking strictly to the laws, there was no Russia per se, yes. Yet the USSR was generally (and informally) referred to as "Russia" even at that time, so there would be no misunderstanding whatsoever.
As for "second exception", let me explain. I am not debating the peacefulness of contemporary finns and estonians, yet I am against wild generalizations (I am for more reasonable ones
).
Look: if your land is rich and fertile, you are at risk of being conquered by neighbours. And if your land is conquered, your people will be killed or turned into slaves, so it is a "fight or die" situation. The extreme example of this is the history of chinese wars: no prisoners were taken whatsoever; conquerers killed everyone and settled themselves.
On the other hand, if your land is too arid, or swampy, or frozen, your nation is comparatively safe: no one will be eager to conquer your lands for the sake of living on them. Thus, your land may be conquered, but only out of strategic reasons (e.g., to gain access to sea shores), and your nation will be given relative freedom. Why not become peaceful?
@ThorsomeTarmukas
Speaking strictly to the laws, there was no Russia per se, yes. Yet the USSR was generally (and informally) referred to as "Russia" even at that time, so there would be no misunderstanding whatsoever.
As for "second exception", let me explain. I am not debating the peacefulness of contemporary finns and estonians, yet I am against wild generalizations (I am for more reasonable ones
).Look: if your land is rich and fertile, you are at risk of being conquered by neighbours. And if your land is conquered, your people will be killed or turned into slaves, so it is a "fight or die" situation. The extreme example of this is the history of chinese wars: no prisoners were taken whatsoever; conquerers killed everyone and settled themselves.
On the other hand, if your land is too arid, or swampy, or frozen, your nation is comparatively safe: no one will be eager to conquer your lands for the sake of living on them. Thus, your land may be conquered, but only out of strategic reasons (e.g., to gain access to sea shores), and your nation will be given relative freedom. Why not become peaceful?
1:30am Sun 29th Apr #8314511
@Pechestelo
["where is Russia" is the right answer only if you wish to play idiot. Not the best thing to do when you're talking to a customs officer, I assure you.]
I understood that it was a Finnish customs officer.
If there was no de facto state named Estonia at the time, then there was no de facto state named Russia at the time either. In fact, Estonia and other Baltic countries had made their first sovereignty decisions at the end of the 1980s, so at that time the de jure and de facto situation was a bit messy.
The last time any Estonian town was de facto part of Soviet Russia was in January 1919. And before that both Estonia and Finland were part of the Russian Empire. So, the alternative reply to the smartpants customs officer would have been: "I thought this is Russia?" That would surely have brough about some repercussions.
[As for peacefulness of finno-ugrians, you may wish to open a book on Hungarian history, for example. They were quite ruthless in their ways.]
Yes, they were the exception to the rule - hungarians were steppe / forest-steppe ugrians.
Can you give any other example as a second exception?
@Pechestelo
["where is Russia" is the right answer only if you wish to play idiot. Not the best thing to do when you're talking to a customs officer, I assure you.]
I understood that it was a Finnish customs officer.
If there was no de facto state named Estonia at the time, then there was no de facto state named Russia at the time either. In fact, Estonia and other Baltic countries had made their first sovereignty decisions at the end of the 1980s, so at that time the de jure and de facto situation was a bit messy.
The last time any Estonian town was de facto part of Soviet Russia was in January 1919. And before that both Estonia and Finland were part of the Russian Empire. So, the alternative reply to the smartpants customs officer would have been: "I thought this is Russia?" That would surely have brough about some repercussions.
[As for peacefulness of finno-ugrians, you may wish to open a book on Hungarian history, for example. They were quite ruthless in their ways.]
Yes, they were the exception to the rule - hungarians were steppe / forest-steppe ugrians.
Can you give any other example as a second exception?
3:45pm Sat 28th Apr #8313976
I wish the Baltic countries were in more of your comics. They are like a mini-Scandinavia.
I wish the Baltic countries were in more of your comics. They are like a mini-Scandinavia.
3:04am Sat 28th Apr #8312694
@ThorsomeTarmukas "where is Russia" is the right answer only if you wish to play idiot. Not the best thing to do when you're talking to a customs officer, I assure you.
As for peacefulness of finno-ugrians, you may wish to open a book on Hungarian history, for example. They were quite ruthless in their ways.
Estonia is different though, which once again proves that generalisations are wrong.
@ThorsomeTarmukas "where is Russia" is the right answer only if you wish to play idiot. Not the best thing to do when you're talking to a customs officer, I assure you.
As for peacefulness of finno-ugrians, you may wish to open a book on Hungarian history, for example. They were quite ruthless in their ways.
Estonia is different though, which once again proves that generalisations are wrong.
8:51am Thu 26th Apr #8310379
@Pechestelo
{ "Is that a town in Russia?", the officer asked in a busy tone." }
The right answer to that would have been:
"And where is Russia?"
{ When I tried to read estonian children's tales (translated into Russian, of course), what struck me most was the constant refrain like "we have been suffering from Swedes, Russians, Letts, Livs, and whoever, during all our history". And even if the tale did not mention it directly, this air of being a sufferer was all over it nonetheless. }
Yes, funny that you don't see that that often in children's stories of native peoples of the former Russian Empire.
Finno-ugrians in general are peaceful people.
Indo-europeans like to portray indo-europeans as war-like people. Maybe there is a connection somewhere?
@Pechestelo
{ "Is that a town in Russia?", the officer asked in a busy tone." }
The right answer to that would have been:
"And where is Russia?"
{ When I tried to read estonian children's tales (translated into Russian, of course), what struck me most was the constant refrain like "we have been suffering from Swedes, Russians, Letts, Livs, and whoever, during all our history". And even if the tale did not mention it directly, this air of being a sufferer was all over it nonetheless. }
Yes, funny that you don't see that that often in children's stories of native peoples of the former Russian Empire.
Finno-ugrians in general are peaceful people.
Indo-europeans like to portray indo-europeans as war-like people. Maybe there is a connection somewhere?
8:38am Thu 26th Apr #8310365
@Andu
"It’s so true that Estonia wants to be part of Nordic club and look like them. It’s because they are developed and it means like you are part of rich club. There is nothing to do with history; it’s more about how develped is your country, little bit culture, behavior."
I disagree.
It is about history - long history.
Germany and Netherlands have also very good economy and Estonia has had a lot of medieval connections with them, but emotionally Nordic trumps Germany and Netherlands.
"Estonia wants to become same level as Nordic countries are right now. When Estonia gets same level or higher they will start look some other club and don’t care so much Nordic club."
Those who do that usually leave Estonia for good and their children cease to connect themselves with Estonia.
"Estonia has become a part of or joined almost anything where they can be. Estonia is even taking part of space programs, + when China got popular Estonians where there as well and wanted to be part of everything."
Estonia wanted to be part of the Nordic who were in China already. Active contacts with China is just a new economic fad. There are even talks about estonian language connections with chinese dialects, but any such connection has to be very old and does not make estonians any less natively nordic.
"For Estonians keeping long brakes between conversations is very common"
That is individual.
But studies have revealed that at the start of a conversation, estonians are much quicker than finns, even quicker than americans, and close to british levels.
[link]
The Estonian average word-per-first-minute rate was 158, whereas the respective Finnish reading was 114.
"Material for comparison could be found, e.g. in the survey of the speech rates of some peoples, written by Aino Sallinen (1990, pp. 6-13). The Finns are said to use 70-140 words per minute, while the Americans produce 125-150 words/min and the word-per-minute rate for the English people is as high as 150-190. If we consider that the results just mentioned were obtained from the reading of different texts (news, poetry, prose, a.o.), the Estonians' rate of 158 observed in an impromptu dialogue looks quite impressive."
---------------
"and we like to say less as possible and being very straight forward."
Well, yes.
But we can say around the corner as well.
And we can be vague.
"Speaking very fast and saying whatever comes in mind is considered very rude."
Annoying mostly. Rude comes later.
@Andu
"It’s so true that Estonia wants to be part of Nordic club and look like them. It’s because they are developed and it means like you are part of rich club. There is nothing to do with history; it’s more about how develped is your country, little bit culture, behavior."
I disagree.
It is about history - long history.
Germany and Netherlands have also very good economy and Estonia has had a lot of medieval connections with them, but emotionally Nordic trumps Germany and Netherlands.
"Estonia wants to become same level as Nordic countries are right now. When Estonia gets same level or higher they will start look some other club and don’t care so much Nordic club."
Those who do that usually leave Estonia for good and their children cease to connect themselves with Estonia.
"Estonia has become a part of or joined almost anything where they can be. Estonia is even taking part of space programs, + when China got popular Estonians where there as well and wanted to be part of everything."
Estonia wanted to be part of the Nordic who were in China already. Active contacts with China is just a new economic fad. There are even talks about estonian language connections with chinese dialects, but any such connection has to be very old and does not make estonians any less natively nordic.
"For Estonians keeping long brakes between conversations is very common"
That is individual.
But studies have revealed that at the start of a conversation, estonians are much quicker than finns, even quicker than americans, and close to british levels.
[link]
The Estonian average word-per-first-minute rate was 158, whereas the respective Finnish reading was 114.
"Material for comparison could be found, e.g. in the survey of the speech rates of some peoples, written by Aino Sallinen (1990, pp. 6-13). The Finns are said to use 70-140 words per minute, while the Americans produce 125-150 words/min and the word-per-minute rate for the English people is as high as 150-190. If we consider that the results just mentioned were obtained from the reading of different texts (news, poetry, prose, a.o.), the Estonians' rate of 158 observed in an impromptu dialogue looks quite impressive."
---------------
"and we like to say less as possible and being very straight forward."
Well, yes.
But we can say around the corner as well.
And we can be vague.
"Speaking very fast and saying whatever comes in mind is considered very rude."
Annoying mostly. Rude comes later.
6:52am Thu 26th Apr #8310223
@CoffeeEnthusiast
"I'm not sure why, but I just don't want Estonia to be Nordic for some reason."
We (estonians) are such arrogant pri@ks aren't we?
And you have enough trouble with the saamis already.
Yet another natively nordic finno-ugric people to be recognized as Nordic would surely be too much to fair and egalitarian germanic scandinavians.
Next thing you know, they (estonians) will start saying that you (germanic scandinavians) are not natively nordic at all.
And they (estonians) do not even speak north-germanic languages. They are such a nuisance. Even more so than the immigrants you are trying to convert to nordicness. In fact, isn't it so that the Scandinavian countries have received more immigrants during the past 20 years than there are Estonians in Estonia. At least those immigrants don't speak finno-ugric. So you think all those immigrants would make fine nordics, but those pesky estonians...
Can't live with them, ...(awkward silence)
@CoffeeEnthusiast
"I'm not sure why, but I just don't want Estonia to be Nordic for some reason."
We (estonians) are such arrogant pri@ks aren't we?
And you have enough trouble with the saamis already.
Yet another natively nordic finno-ugric people to be recognized as Nordic would surely be too much to fair and egalitarian germanic scandinavians.
Next thing you know, they (estonians) will start saying that you (germanic scandinavians) are not natively nordic at all.
And they (estonians) do not even speak north-germanic languages. They are such a nuisance. Even more so than the immigrants you are trying to convert to nordicness. In fact, isn't it so that the Scandinavian countries have received more immigrants during the past 20 years than there are Estonians in Estonia. At least those immigrants don't speak finno-ugric. So you think all those immigrants would make fine nordics, but those pesky estonians...
Can't live with them, ...(awkward silence)
6:34am Thu 26th Apr #8310202
@Meelis
"These swedes, mostly living in western Estonia and islands, ..., these swedes arrived here around year 1000-mid 13th century. so, basically over 900 years before most of them evacuated."
That is debatable.
There might have been a scandinavian trading community in Tallinn, with the later St. Olaf Church and all.
But any swedish speaking population on the Estonian coast before the crusades had to be bilingual and mostly bilingual finno-ugrians - who after the crusades turned into Finnish swedes and Estonian coastal swedes.
The 3-4th century AD presence of wandering Gotlanders in Hiiumaa is just a hunch. And even if they stayed, they left quickly for better pastures.
@Meelis
"These swedes, mostly living in western Estonia and islands, ..., these swedes arrived here around year 1000-mid 13th century. so, basically over 900 years before most of them evacuated."
That is debatable.
There might have been a scandinavian trading community in Tallinn, with the later St. Olaf Church and all.
But any swedish speaking population on the Estonian coast before the crusades had to be bilingual and mostly bilingual finno-ugrians - who after the crusades turned into Finnish swedes and Estonian coastal swedes.
The 3-4th century AD presence of wandering Gotlanders in Hiiumaa is just a hunch. And even if they stayed, they left quickly for better pastures.
6:11am Thu 26th Apr #8310176
"-Today: Estonia doesn't have the Nordic Welfare State/Nordic Model."
Yes, and our Sun is not a supernova.
One can follow only the possible evolutionary paths.
Whether Estonia will reach the "Nordic Welfare State/Nordic Model" remains to be seen. And by that time that model might transform into something different. Who knows, perhaps Estonia will reach that new Nordic model before others.
"Estonia has a flat tax-rate and greater inequality, problems with poverty."
Poverty is a problem.
Flat tax rate is not necessarily a problem, if one implements resource tax and dividend schemes.
Greater inequality is a problem, but I fail to see how the germanic Nordic could sustain their model with an increasing input of balkan, middle-eastern and african immigration. I'd gather that by the time the immigrants reach 40% share of population (as Estonia suffered in 1990), that germanic Nordic is in a much deeper doo-doo than Estonia.
In many ways, Estonia is actually ahead of the germanic Nordic. And many of our current political-economical choices have been made to adapt to such a high share of immigrants. It might be a wrong direction, but that we will find out during the current century.
The Nordic Model comprises ideals of equality and low income differences, equal opportunity. These ideals are at the heart of our societies."
"-Today: Estonia doesn't have the Nordic Welfare State/Nordic Model."
Yes, and our Sun is not a supernova.
One can follow only the possible evolutionary paths.
Whether Estonia will reach the "Nordic Welfare State/Nordic Model" remains to be seen. And by that time that model might transform into something different. Who knows, perhaps Estonia will reach that new Nordic model before others.
"Estonia has a flat tax-rate and greater inequality, problems with poverty."
Poverty is a problem.
Flat tax rate is not necessarily a problem, if one implements resource tax and dividend schemes.
Greater inequality is a problem, but I fail to see how the germanic Nordic could sustain their model with an increasing input of balkan, middle-eastern and african immigration. I'd gather that by the time the immigrants reach 40% share of population (as Estonia suffered in 1990), that germanic Nordic is in a much deeper doo-doo than Estonia.
In many ways, Estonia is actually ahead of the germanic Nordic. And many of our current political-economical choices have been made to adapt to such a high share of immigrants. It might be a wrong direction, but that we will find out during the current century.
The Nordic Model comprises ideals of equality and low income differences, equal opportunity. These ideals are at the heart of our societies."
5:57am Thu 26th Apr #8310167
@Franzen
"Why Estonia is not Nordic?
There are some people arguing that Estonia would be Nordic and asking for counter-arguments. Here you are!
-Estonia has never been an integral part of Scandinavia."
Scandinavia was an integral part of the greater Old Nordic region, together with Estonia. That was before north-germanic dialects showed up.
Estonia is also integral to Scandinavia via other baltic finnic and saami peoples living in Scandinavia - we are as much a whole as you consider germanic scandinavians as a whole.
"-A related point: Estonian state, society, laws were different."
So were the laws of saamis, before they were fully integrated to the germanic Nordic. In fact, don't saamis still have their own legislation for some part?
Do you consider saamis not Nordic because they had or still have different laws?
"There was serfdom and peasants didn't have anything to say on politics."
Some Scandinavian kings were serfs in Estonia before the crusades. They didn't have anything to say on politics. Does that mean that Scandinavia is not part of the Nordic? Or that being a serf automatically invalidates one's abilities to be(come) democratic?
I think you should turn this upside down - Estonians have never conquered other countries. Pillaged, yes, as a counterstrike, but not conquered. There have never been hostilities between estonian and finnish tribes. There have always (until quite recently) been hostilities between the germanic Scandinavian tribes. Does that say something about the ability to practice democracy?
"An important part of the Nordic tradition is equality and freedom."
Sure. As is in Estonia.
"Estonia was more like Central Europe in this sense and it was in fact ruled by a German aristocracy, not Swedish or Danish one (like in Finland, Norway and Iceland)."
Being ruled by a Swedish or a Danish ruler is not an indication of being free and democratic and equal.
Estonia has had first-hand experience on both.
One can discern different shades of freeness and equality. One should abstain from any absolutist conclusions. It is not at all clear who (Estonia or Finland) has retained more of their pre-crusades freedom.
"-Estonia doesn't have a strong Scandinavian presence. Finland has had a significant Swedish minority since the Middle Ages to this day (about 15-20 % at max, now 6 %)."
Scandinavia is not the whole Nordic.
Scandinavia is the dominant part of the germanic Nordic.
The swedish minority in Finland has mixed origin from swedes, finns and estonians. Proper finns (varsinaissuomalaiset) also have a significant component of estonian ancestry. The shares of these components have yet to be discerned.
"In Estonia the significance of Estonian Swedes was considerably smaller and now they are almost extinct."
Well, so are finnic and saami peoples almost extinct in Gotland, Aland and Götaland. And in Latvia, Lithuania and Prussia.
"-Estonians are not traditional minorities in Nordic countries. Finns/Finnish speakers have been a minority in Sweden and Norway since the Middle Ages and even today about 5 % of Swedes have a Finnish background."
Estonians are an integral part of the baltic finnic + saami peoples, and as such we share the presence in Sweden and Norway.
For example, based on the single haplogroup N frequencies in Gotland and Estonia and Latvia, about 25-40% of Gotland men could be said of having south-baltic finnic origin/relations.
Of course, all Y haplogroups together would draw a different picture. And autosomal DNA another picture.
@Franzen
"Why Estonia is not Nordic?
There are some people arguing that Estonia would be Nordic and asking for counter-arguments. Here you are!
-Estonia has never been an integral part of Scandinavia."
Scandinavia was an integral part of the greater Old Nordic region, together with Estonia. That was before north-germanic dialects showed up.
Estonia is also integral to Scandinavia via other baltic finnic and saami peoples living in Scandinavia - we are as much a whole as you consider germanic scandinavians as a whole.
"-A related point: Estonian state, society, laws were different."
So were the laws of saamis, before they were fully integrated to the germanic Nordic. In fact, don't saamis still have their own legislation for some part?
Do you consider saamis not Nordic because they had or still have different laws?
"There was serfdom and peasants didn't have anything to say on politics."
Some Scandinavian kings were serfs in Estonia before the crusades. They didn't have anything to say on politics. Does that mean that Scandinavia is not part of the Nordic? Or that being a serf automatically invalidates one's abilities to be(come) democratic?
I think you should turn this upside down - Estonians have never conquered other countries. Pillaged, yes, as a counterstrike, but not conquered. There have never been hostilities between estonian and finnish tribes. There have always (until quite recently) been hostilities between the germanic Scandinavian tribes. Does that say something about the ability to practice democracy?
"An important part of the Nordic tradition is equality and freedom."
Sure. As is in Estonia.
"Estonia was more like Central Europe in this sense and it was in fact ruled by a German aristocracy, not Swedish or Danish one (like in Finland, Norway and Iceland)."
Being ruled by a Swedish or a Danish ruler is not an indication of being free and democratic and equal.
Estonia has had first-hand experience on both.
One can discern different shades of freeness and equality. One should abstain from any absolutist conclusions. It is not at all clear who (Estonia or Finland) has retained more of their pre-crusades freedom.
"-Estonia doesn't have a strong Scandinavian presence. Finland has had a significant Swedish minority since the Middle Ages to this day (about 15-20 % at max, now 6 %)."
Scandinavia is not the whole Nordic.
Scandinavia is the dominant part of the germanic Nordic.
The swedish minority in Finland has mixed origin from swedes, finns and estonians. Proper finns (varsinaissuomalaiset) also have a significant component of estonian ancestry. The shares of these components have yet to be discerned.
"In Estonia the significance of Estonian Swedes was considerably smaller and now they are almost extinct."
Well, so are finnic and saami peoples almost extinct in Gotland, Aland and Götaland. And in Latvia, Lithuania and Prussia.
"-Estonians are not traditional minorities in Nordic countries. Finns/Finnish speakers have been a minority in Sweden and Norway since the Middle Ages and even today about 5 % of Swedes have a Finnish background."
Estonians are an integral part of the baltic finnic + saami peoples, and as such we share the presence in Sweden and Norway.
For example, based on the single haplogroup N frequencies in Gotland and Estonia and Latvia, about 25-40% of Gotland men could be said of having south-baltic finnic origin/relations.
Of course, all Y haplogroups together would draw a different picture. And autosomal DNA another picture.
7:57pm Sun 22nd Apr #8305524
Estonia has the best flag, IMHO. I actually admire them; their reputation is that they're an ambitious and intelligent people.
Estonia has the best flag, IMHO. I actually admire them; their reputation is that they're an ambitious and intelligent people.
8:00am Sun 22nd Apr #8304147
Estonia ought to have really good teeth, people always seem to go there to see dentists, at least in Sweden, although it might have more to do with Estonian dentists being much cheaper than Swedish ones. . .
Estonia ought to have really good teeth, people always seem to go there to see dentists, at least in Sweden, although it might have more to do with Estonian dentists being much cheaper than Swedish ones. . .
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@Pechestelo
"In fact, Russia has taken responsibility for USSR (at least considering debts and such). Does that make me a man of integrity?"
Yes! :-)
[ Really, talking of "blame" on a country-wide scale is nonsensical to me. Who are you going to blame for annexing Estonia? Russian people? They have nothing to do with that. Current Russian government? Same story, they didn't do that, and could not prevent that even if they had a time machine. You can blame a former Soviet regime, that's true, but there is no point in doing it, actually: this regime is gone, so you'll be whipping the sea.]
There is a very simple litmus test for that - whether Russia or a russian individual admits the existence of MRP, soviet occupation of Estonia, and the legal continuity of the Estonian Republic since 1918.
Contemporary Russia has recognized the independence of Estonia and the existence and illegality of MRP, but Russia has not recognized the legal continuity of the Estonian Republic since 1918 - and that actually puts the RF recognition of independent Estonia into doubt.
[Now "taking the glory". You see, formally it is as nonsensical as taking the blame, because USSR is gone.]
Or is it?
USSR was created by Soviet Russia.
Two of the three main power verticals of the soviet regime are still intact: the Army and the NKVD/KGB/FSB. The executive branch of the soviet regime is still alive and kicking. It is the Russian KGB/FSB which destroyed and/or relocated the Estonian KGB archives, which forbade Estonia to start from a blank sheet in 1991. And that is part of the blame.
["So small, but already russian!"
Do you estonians really say such things often? Hm.
If so, you should be aware that such attitude is bad not only for russians whom you make uncomfortable by such implied insults, but also for you.]
Not that often.
This was the first time when I personally used it.
I have read about it. It might be part of an anecdote, I am not sure. As I already suggested, perhaps it would be more politically correct to say: "So young, but already soviet!"
[I've been in areas where national tensions were high, and I assure you: provocative behaviour on one side and hurt pride on the other result in long-lasting hatred and conflict. Both sides are hurt as the result, and hurt severely. You will not be able to "fix" such a conflict easily, it will smoke and burn for decades.]
Yes, I am aware of that.
I am basically living in it.
The thing is, even if I don't use such insults in person, nevertheless I find it hard to condemn some more outspoken estonians who occasionally make such insults when there is a case for that.
And I only brought this insult up here as an analogy to the russian/soviet confusion. The thing is, what is "russian" has always been morfing, and through all history, the neighbours of "russians" have been suffering at the hands of "russians". And in many respects, soviet was meant to be the next "russian".