Big Bad Wolf

Many decades ago, wolves were seen killing the deer in Grand Canyon National Park (Arizona & Nevada). People fretted and said, "Poor deer! We must save them from big, bad wolves." After all the wolves were then removed/killed, the deer population promptly exploded and then stripped the Grand Canyon of much of it's greenery, then the deer starved to death due to a lack of a natural predator controlling the local population. The Grand Canyon STILL has not recovered to its former vegetation state before man interfered. And in Yellowstone National Park, up in Wyoming, they have reintroduced wolves and the forest is growing and recovering much faster because they wolves control the elk population, which was eating young tree saplings, slowing forest recovering from a major forest fire a few decades ago.

I bet with the introduction of wolves, you'll have more forest regrowth, and more control over rabbit and rat populations.

@CaliforniaAmazon The parties that wants the wolf controlled or exterminated usually get a lot of votes from farmers and the like, so in this case they are just pleasing their voters, which wants to protect their industry over nature.

@CaliforniaAmazon

That's nothing compared to what China did to themselves in trying to eliminate Sparrows.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

And, of course, the Plague was spread unchecked by flea-carrying mice due to fear of witches cats.

@Dan Yeah, I read about millions starving due to Mao's sparrow elimination program.

Just to make a note here: the politicians have discussed *regulating* the wolves, not killing them all off.
In my mind, this means deciding how many wolves to allow in the Danish nature, how and when to regulate them, and how and when to act when they start posing threat to our "forest kindergardens" and domestic animals like sheep and other "ecological" or free-range lifestock.

Deciding how to regulate them now is just an attempt of due diligence - not speciocide.
This drama is merely an example of media creating a new sensation out of nothing. Someone says "ok, now we have wolves here, be better figure out how many we should allow before it becomes a problem", and then someone else says "OMG, you're gonna kill all of them, you bastard".

That being said, I understand the notion of fear for this animal. The most dangerous and lethal wild life animal we've had in our nature for decades is the tick. We're used to be able to let kids and pets be (mostly) free in the open without any need for worry. And when i see people interviewed who are against regulation of the wolves, they live in large cities like Copenhagen. Far, far away from the forests in Jutland where the wolves are. I'd like to see two things:
1: people in southern Jutland who are happy for the return of the wolves
2: capture of wolves, setting them free in the backyard of con-regulation people, and then hear if they still think they shouldn't be regulated. Then i'd care more about what they have to say.

@Amalyte "Regulation" of an apex predator is usually a euphemism for killing.

@ShoggothOnTheRoof no no no, we just gonna put some poison food down, you keep your animals away and if those silly wolves eat it it's thier own fault... (yeh aussies bait dingoes, dont know other countries way of "regulating" thier predators, baiting seems easy)

@ShoggothOnTheRoof You could make them fill out some paperwork and pay a predator tax. That'd be "regulating," I guess.

@Amalyte Oh they'll love the idea untill they come up to the national parks and see the signs saying NO ENTRY. Then they will complain about all the high electrified fences ruining the views. Oh and maybe the price of organic lamb. Or gods forbid, that they can't come hunting as the deer numbers are not high enough.

It can be a difficult subject to decide on. Denmark isn't as big as Germany, Sweden and Norway, so some people are scared that wolves will get to close to areas populated by humans.
Then there's the farmers who have very legit concerns that wolves will attack their animals. It has already happend with some attacks on sheep. This is an issue that needs to be fixed if there is to be any hope of the wolves being allowed to remain in the country (After all, it was the reason they were driven to extinction before).
The whole 'Wolves will kill our babies!' is, however, a stupid argument. Wolves are shit scared of humans so they won't run over and eat your baby - unless you let your 8 year old child walk all alone in isolated areas. But honestly, then a wolf would be the least of your concerns! And being scared they'll kill your dog? Well, then don't let your dog off the leash! You're already not allowed to do that in most of the wooded areas in Denmark! Just follow the damn rules and the wolf won't come over and eat your dog.

@ACVE There is this newfangled invention that can protect sheep from wolves. It's called a fence. Problem is, farmers don't want to pay for proper fences, shooting the wolf is cheaper. There is also sheepdogs. They are called that for a reason. Problem is, they cost money too and you have to feed and train them, and you have to pay an actual shepherd, and that cuts into your profit. Shooting a wolf just costs 1 bullet, so farmers would prefer that... it's about not wanting to spend money.

'@nicolaisen' what do you consider to be a proper fence?

@comrade_Comrade a wall, and the wolves will pay for it

'@Danieleon'' #9659922'' #9659099'

@nicolaisen In Denmark farmers get money from the government to pay for wolf-fences (So they don't really have to worry about money on that front). Actually it was on a farm that already had such a fence - if I remember it correctly - that there was an attack. If that was due to some sort of failure in setting up the fence or something later creating a hole in it, I don't know.

@ACVE Yeah, but most of the times when people accuse wolfs of killing their sheep, it turns out to be the neighbours dog. At least that's how it's where I live. Farmers scream and shout about how the wolf took some of their sheep and it's everywhere, in the papers, on the radio and suddenly it's never spoken about again cuz, once again it turned out to be the neighbours dog. But they won't admit it since they made such a big deal about it being the wolf. Same thing with lynx.

@Kiwi-chan There have been a proven case through DNA in Denmark of sheep that were killed by a wolf - and maybe a second one at the same farm (If I remember correctly they're in the midst of doing another DNA analysis on that incident)

@ACVE the people around my area use lamas and alpacas to ward off wolves and other creatures. have the farmers there tried that yet?

@cutiepyro I can't say they have xD We don't really have those here.

@ACVE oh they'll be scared of lamas and alpacas in a month, and on top of that they eat grass. perfect animal to guard your sheep

@cutiepyro xD

When the wolf first came, I was really exited. I am very fascinated by wolves, and liked the idea of a little more 'wildness' in Danish nature. I do live in a big city. However, my perception have changed, seeing how they actually interact.

The problem is that Denmark is a small country, with very little space. Therefore, wolves come relatively close to some populated areas. The problem with this is, when they live so close to humans, they loose their natural fear of them. There are school children (age 12 for example) who have experienced being followed when walking to the bus-stop. Families, who do have fences that should be 'wolf safe' have had a wolf get into their back yard anyways, sometimes killing/injuring their dog.

In nature, predators will usually only kill what they eat. But since lifestock in Denmark are fenced in, once the wolf enters, they can't escape. It have been seen that the wolf kills several sheep at a time, because it is easier than it would be for wild prey.

This is not a question about farmers finding it cheaper/easier to just kill off the wolves. This is a question of people fearing for their own, and their childrens, safety. If there are no option to regulate them, they have access to unlimited prey, higher survival rate, and no natural enemies. Once they discover that humans are easy to prey on, we will have a bigger problem. And it will probably be children paying the price.

As much as I love the wolves, there are a different problem with it in Denmark.

@DanishMaiden Would it not be possible to put fences around the wildlife preserves so the wolves don't leave it?

Sadly, Norwegians are just as bad on this front. Sheep farmers here can't be bothered to hire shepherds or actually watch over their sheep, so instead they just shove their sheep off into the forest for a few weeks and expect the wolves to just behave and not attack the easy food source. Also, everytime a sheep dies they seem to blame wolves, even though they've only been able to prove the sheep were killed by wolves around 5% of the time, the rest of the cases were accidents, diseases and other wild predators such as lynxes and bears. They treat wolves like a convenient scapegoat. If these guys had their way, our entire country would just be one giant baby-proofed park with all wild animals extinct.

'@Niobesnuppa' why do I have feeling that "can't be bothered to hire shepherds" is in fact "can't afford"? If hired hands are expensive and fences are regulated to a point of uselessness then going to the source and removing wolves (and then going for lynxes and bears) is an optimal solution for farmer.

@comrade_Comrade You seriously think removing all natural predators from an eco-system would be a good solution? Don't you see any value in animal life or a varied wildlife? If everyone thought like that, I'm sure all big cats like tigers and lions would already be extinct, but I guess since they're no use to humans they don't deserve to live as far as you're concerned.
Sheep farmers already made wolves extinct here once before, and the entire eco-system took a big hit, with overpopulation among all the animals wolves previously hunted, starvation in said overpopulated animals, several plant species became endangered due to the fact that there were too many herbivores constantly eating them. You need to understand that everything has a place in this world. Wolves are a very important part of Norway's ecosystem, and if you remove them from our landscape, then every other animal and plant species would be negatively affected by it. It's incredibly naïve to think it's possible to just remove an animal species and expect there to be no disastrous concequences.
Not to mention over half of all the sheep deaths aren't even caused by predators, they're caused by accidents and diseases. If they can't or won't hire shepherds, then they shouldn't send the sheep off into Norway's dangerous and mountainous landscape alone. Keep them in a fenced off area if you refuse to take proper care of them.
Look at Britain. They made wolves extinct several hundred years ago, and now everywhere in Britain looks like a barren park with no natural-looking wild landscapes, because the herbivores have run amok with no one to control their population so they eat everything until there's only grass left.
Hell, if you need any visual proof, here's what happened to Yellowstone Park in the USA when they reintroduced wolves to the region: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

Also, this is Norway, these farmers aren't poor. They actually get a ton of money from the government, they could easily afford to hire shepherds. I'm sure if they hired shepherds they would actually save a lot of money due to them protecting the sheep from injuries and disease that are easily preventable as long as there's someone watching over them. Hell, if they're so insistent on saving money, they can just buy a llama. Sheep herds where they've added a llama to the herd are barely ever attacked by wild animals, because llamas look tall and intimidating. There's a very easy solution here, but sheep farmers in this country just blindly hate wolves and want them extinct with no concern for the concequences their extinction would cause. Wolves here are already critically endangered to the point where there's only about 30 of them left (I have no idea how they can keep blaming the wolves everytime a sheep dies when there's hardly any wolves left in the entire country), and yet the government still allows these rednecks to hunt them down.

'@Niobesnuppa' for farmer ecosystem is irrelevant if he has no income.

"Also, this is Norway, these farmers aren't poor. They actually get a ton of money from the government, they could easily afford to hire shepherds."
Given average wage in Norway and poor returns from sheep farming in other countries I'd like to see some proper estimates. One farm hand in Norway would cost more than income from 100+ sheep per year in Ireland. Electric fence would have a significant up-front cost, especially on uneven ground and I'm not sure it would be legal since barbed wire is already prohibited. For areas with large animals like bear or moose, cheap options like wire mesh or wooden fence is impractical. Also not resistant to digging under the obstacle. Any measure that uses fear as deterrent is dependent on wolves not learning and animals not leaving the herd at any time. I wouldn't bet on that working well or long enough.

"There's a very easy solution here"
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

Proper Coasian approach would be for those who are interested in preservation of wolves to pay for building and maintaining electric fences for anyone willing to have one and living in proximity of wolves, maybe along with effort at monitoring animals to prevent people from hunting them "just because". Of course that's unlikely because virtue signaling and demanding further regulation of farmers (to a point of complete prohibition or impracticality of non-factory farming), hunting and fences is cheaper and easier.

@comrade_Comrade You know what, it's very obvious you've already decided that there is no value to animal life and that animal welfare doesn't matter, so I'm not going to continue this argument. If you think all animals that serve no direct (emphasis on direct here, all animals serve indirect use for humans through their role in the ecosystem) use for humans deserve to die, then there's no hope of convincing you otherwise, because you likely don't care about the ecosystem or what happens to nature after your generation is gone. I also like how you just ignored the statistics I gave you about how sheep killed by predators make up less than 10% of the total sheep deaths and that hiring shepherds would prevent almost all sheep deaths while making all predators extinct would prevent pretty much nothing, but of course you did, admitting that wouldn't fit your narrative.
I'm really not surprised, though. Your country Russia is pretty notorious for widespread animal cruelty, usually landing in the top 10 worst countries for animals, so logically the average person such as yourself probably see animals as tools and not as living creatures with feelings.

'@Niobesnuppa' "You know what, it's very obvious you've already decided that there is no value to animal life and that animal welfare doesn't matter"
No, it's just that you've decided that your valuation of those animals should be held as objective and paid for, directly or indirectly, by someone else. In fact, since you've obviously skipped Coasian option, it is easy to conclude that you just want farmers to internalize costs of your preference so it will remain free for you. Quite selfish, are you?

" so I'm not going to continue this argument"
Then you proceed to continue this argument, disregarding my points and doubling down on your own.

" If you think all animals that serve no direct (emphasis on direct here, all animals serve indirect use for humans through their role in the ecosystem) use for humans deserve to die"
Following that logic, mosquitos spreading malaria or rats should not have been harmed as well.

"I also like how you just ignored the statistics I gave you about how sheep killed by predators make up less than 10% of the total sheep deaths and that hiring shepherds "
I also like how you just ignored the fact that there might be no money there to hire those shepherds.
In business any loss in single digits of percent is a significant one and if it can be reduced relatively easily there should be a damn good case against such action to prevent it.
Also, if it's 10% now when wolves are nearly extinct, number will go up along with growth of population and you're not helping your argument.

Then again, it looks like you've never considered cost of fencing (or the fact that it may be prohibited), or cost and efficacy (Italian experience in Eurasia has to be adjusted for local difference) of guard dogs since particular breed and training are required.

"I'm really not surprised, though."
I'm really not surprised that economic argument went clear of your attention and instead you've went for an explanation that in most other settings you would claim to be bigoted.

"Your country Russia is pretty notorious for widespread animal cruelty, usually landing in the top 10 worst countries for animals"
Yeah, people were too busy with their own survival during 90s and after 2008. Matter of priorities.

"so logically the average person such as yourself probably see animals as tools and not as living creatures with feelings. "
If you want to appeal to feelings, then for farm animals nailgun to the head is a better option than being gutted and gradually eaten alive by a pack of wolves.

@comrade_Comrade I saw this whole discussion here, and I’d like to add this link here: https://www.nrk.no/ytring/kunnskapslose-rovdyrforkjempere-1.12480356
It’s an Norwegian article, but I’m sure you can google translate it or something to be able to read it all. If not, I can probably translate some of it.

@comrade_Comrade what they talk about is that most people that want wolves in Norway, and simply tell the sheep farmers to either “get a fence”, “get a sheep herder”, and that they earn more than enough money to easily deal with wolves simply doesn’t know shit. Pretty much every single person that so desperately wants wolves to wander freely around in Norway is living in a city or something, and probably haven’t even been on a farm, and especially not a sheep farm where they’ve been visited by wolves that managed to dig under the “predator safe” fence and killed of all the sheep there is. Wolves kill. And if they get the chance, they’ll kill everything they can get their teeth in. I’m not saying they do if for fun. But I’m simply stating the fact that wolves are dangerous predators, and they have been portrayed that way in fairytales etc FOR A REASON.

'@kobirita' thanks for the article. Underlying issue is probably that people living in cities tend to romanticize the nature, while adaptability and viciousness of predators is grossly underestimated. This is especially ironic given how house cat is both a common pet and a great example of roaming predator that kills for fun, while being smart enough to overcome even complicated obstacles.

( Btw, @comrade_Comrade I’m not referring to you or discussing against you in any way. I agree with you!)

@Niobesnuppa

The Wolf did it!

But that bear was EATING your sheep.

The Wolf put it up to it!

Sigh.

'@FrankHarr' or it could be that wolves kill ungulates and eat as much as they can, then scavengers (like brown bears) pick the remaining carcasses clean.

But yeah, muh collusion.

@comrade_Comrade

"or it could be that. . . "

I have no idea what this is in reply to. I'm sorry, I can't engage. Have fun.

'@FrankHarr'' #9660096'' #9660960'' #9661056'' #9663657'

@comrade_Comrade

Oooo.K.

It is usually big citie's people who defend wolves. Yeah, meat grows on trees or maybe in markets. I wonder what would they say if they couldnt get their hamburger or if the meat price skyrocketed...

@MiskisM ..... what?

@MiskisM Can't ranchers just use fences to keep the wolves from eating their livestock?

@PaxRomana
Wolves are smart and agile, fences only box in their prey. There are shepherd dog breeds that were bred to defend flocks from wolves, but are often pain in the ass to properly train.

@PaxRomana Wolves are scary for many reasons, but I think it is mainly that they are smart.... They will exploit any weakness in fence, go over, under or through.... You would need solid wall (fuck Trump for making that word dirty) to be safe...

@MiskisM You know that farmers barely raise any of the meat that will be soled in the supermarkets on fast food right?Most of the meat comes from meat factories and the chances for a pack of wolfs to come that close and create any real damage is very low.
Plus farmers can always get fences and sheep dogs to keep the animals safe.Have you ever seen how sheep dogs act when a wolf is near?You will hear a wolf is near from a mile away,and the dogs will chance the wolf away in most cases.You rarely need to actually harm the wolf.

@MiskisM you are misinformed, meat comes from the supermarket!

Perhaps the Danes should build a wall against the wolves and make them pay for it?

'@Rogers' wolf pelts can be valuable, can probably be done. Fence is ought to be enough though, since wolves can't catapult drugs over it.

@comrade_Comrade I'm not sure a fence would be enough, those wolves are clever. Not as smart as Danes but still crafty animals. I doubt that they have figured out how to smuggle drugs. Or perhaps that is just what the wolves want us to think.

'@Rogers' fence with a decent footer is good enough for anything without opposable thumbs. Add barbed wire on top if something would want to climb over it.
Theory that wolves smart enough to manipulate public would explain a lot about Sweden.

@comrade_Comrade You must refer to Swedens decent protection of wildlife. But since many Scandinavian wolves have immigrated from Russia I hope that theory is wrong.

'@Rogers' stop the presses! Russian influence in Swedish elections confirmed!

@comrade_Comrade You know, it wouldn't suprise me if some American media honestly blamed their recent mess on Russian wolf infiltration.

@Rogers you fool, that will only strengthen their wolf based economy

@SydneyCarton #9658865
Yeah, like the purity of the white race or European culture.

There is a fascinating study in the link below about the wolves and how they corrected the Ecosystem in Yellowstone National Park after they were reintroduced. So much, that it changed the flow of rivers because the vegetation was allowed to grow back once the deer and elk populations were culled by the wolf packs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

Unfortunately - Now with our current government we have idiots who want to be able to kill bear and wolf families in their dens during hibernation - cause that's going to be enable all the big bad hunters to experience the thrill of the hunt - Fidiots! :-(

@BellaU2 I really wish more people would understand how ecosystems work. It's not as simple as just taking out the animal that some people like, everything has a place in this world, and if you remove natural predators, herbivores will run amok and turn every place into a barren garden landscape where there's nothing but grass left.

At least we know who has won in https://satwcomic.com/happy-friendly-animals