Masquerade

There's a joke going round that the Finns are protesting the 2 metre social distancing rule, because it's far too short.

@RalphieRaccoon Speaking as one who's friends are on the opposite side of the Atlantic, I appreciate the Finnish position. :-)

@RalphieRaccoon There's a similar joke about my country as well. Latvians are waiting to get back to the usuall 6 m distance, 2m is too short. Could it be typical for northern people?

@Baronese Yeah... When visiting Riga (so that my kid spends time with her babushka) and riding the tram I can almost feel the angst generated by the others around because having to sit so close. The experience was similar in Helsinki.

What always fascinates me is that people apparently do not understand that they should not wear the masks to protect themselves, but everyone else around them.

In my opinion, there can only be two reasons for this:

1. they really don't understand
2. they do not care

And neither of the two possibilities makes me feel positive about those people.

@DerDings Don't care. Definitely in the 'don't care' category.

The American obsession with freedom has fetishized 'freedom from' and demonized 'freedom to' to such an extreme degree that sometimes trying to get a population to do anything is like trying to convince a spoiled child that immediately shrieks I DONT WANNA at the top of their lungs at the merest suggestion of being asked to inconvenience themselves for something that doesn't immediately satisfy their personal pleasure.

Freedom from includes freedom from responsibility, after all. And in the storm of right wing 'personal responsibility' hooting is an undercurrent of rejection of responsibility to family, to community, or to country, in addition to always trying to wriggle out of as many personal responsibilities as possible.

@DerDings We think in terms of probability.

School shooters almost certainly won’t kill your kid, police brutality almost certainly won’t affect you, and so on. Bear in mind that the states with port cities (New York, Louisiana etc.) are taking this seriously, and if you live in the middle of nowhere and you didn’t prepare, oh well.

It’s a terrible way to stop a pandemic, but letting people deal with their own problems is good 99% of the time. We can’t afford to lose sight of that.

@DerDings I don't even think it's that actually - if you go back early on quite a few sources actually said "DO NOT WEAR masks," from the CDC director to our own Fauci. If I recall correctly back then it was "Please stop buying masks so our doctors can actually use it" and "masks shouldn't be too much of an issue because the coronavirus wasn't spread across the Us enough to warrant it." Keep in mind at the time I THINK the vast majority of Covid cases were in New York.

And then Trump took it a step further, not only calling it a 'democratic hoax,' but when those same health organizations and officials realized how much trouble we were in and started calling for people to wear masks, he just kept saying "No, we don't need masks - we're fine, we have it under control, the democrats are just trying to scare you." Trump basically turned mask-wearing into a political thing and.... yeah, when that happens, stuff got out of control fast with the mask wearing. A LOT of the people that don't wear masks are the people that kind of ascribe to heavily political "THIS IS OUR FREEDOM" thing that Trump has been spouting, so when he says something they listen, and unfortunately they follow his example and listen despite reality.

Honestly, we were just too under prepared in the beginning stages, and then when things started taking off it just spiraled out of control due to political reasons. Unfortunately, spiraling out of control due to political reasons happens way too often in the great "united" states of america.

The US wouldn't have needed masks either if the entire country had shut down all at once with people actually observing it right when this thing started. There was such a patchwork of policies across the country with contradictory and scientifically incorrect information being given out by certain political figures that the US never stood a chance.

@Namtekcor Aye, it's as though centralised authority has broken down in the US at this point

@Skrynesaver
You realize it's a 'states' thing yeah? I mean it's like saying "The EU wouldn't need masks if the EU had just shut down all at once..."

@evileeyore Well at least we can close our borders to each other, US states can't so unless you all are doing it then noone are doing it because the virus will just keep jumping from state to state to state with no end in sight

@Skrynesaver No, we never really had centralized authority to begin with, and the current abomination we have as President is now trying to assert is authority by having troops occupy cities whose mayors belong to the opposition party. These troops attack citizens for speaking out in public against racism and police brutality. So honestly, even centralized authority wouldn't be a lot of help given who'd be exercising it. At this point, I'm just wondering how much longer we're even going to have a country that can be saved.

@Namtekcor Either a coordinated and complete shutdown, paired with robust social programs to keep people afloat while the economy and civil society is on pause, or a universal mask approach, like Japan.

The Japanese approach of active and proactive precaution probably would ahve fit america best, what with it's puritanical culture of exploitative low wage indentured work ethic, but that's something that has to be implemented early and followed universally and for an extended period until such a time effective treatment and vaccination is developed, with the understanding that if you do it right you're left questioning if it was necessary.

LOL, no, masks don't work. It's partially a virtue-signaling fad among leftists trying to demonstrate how conscientious they are, combined with constant apocalyptically negative news coverage in the mainstream media such as CNN, MSNBC, and the New York Times, which constantly emphasizes how horrible the situation with the virus is, how hydroxychloroquine absolutely does not work (it's supposed to be that plus azithromycin plus zinc, btw), as well as the phenomenon of scaring people half to death by constantly repeating scary anecdotes about young people or children getting sick or dying from the bug, or even people catching it twice, even though they're very rare events.

Seriously, if the news media behaved this negatively during World War II, they'd be charged with treason, or at the very least accused of working for the Axis. There was even a survey done which found that Americans and Britons thought the virus was 200 times deadlier than it actually is. Great job, news media. Greeeat joobb.

@BGMan

Sounds very much like the sort of mentality that during the mid stages of WWII - i.e. the 1st part of US direct involvement were arguing "why should we be forced to switch off our lights simply because those lights are being used by U boats to aid in sinking shipping off our coastline". If you want to keep killing Americans keep spreading rumours like that. Its interesting that areas that have taken steps to prevent the spread have seen drastic drops in infection and fatalities, like New York which was the biggest hot-spot initially. Its the more reckless areas especially across the south that are seeing rapid growth in infections and fatalities. Note that recorded deaths from the virus - and there are no doubt many not recorded - is currently ~164k. In about 10 years of war in Vietnam the US suffered ~58k so if you think something that kills roughly three times that number in ~6 months is a trivial issue that says a lot about your priorities.

Masks are bloody uncomfortable but they do work in hindering the spread of the virus, along with probably numerous others less lethal ones. They don't protect the wearer but prevent people who have the virus but don't know it spreading it to others.

"hydroxychloroquine absolutely does not work (it's supposed to be that plus azithromycin plus zinc, btw)" - well there's no evidence that the combination works either, other than the ranting of a pathological liar who repeatedly only usually only mentions azithromycin. His view ego has been responsible for a lot of deaths as he has repeated denied the evidence because he see admitting there's a problem as some sort of blow to his prestige, which is obviously more important to him than tens of thousands of Americans dying.

News medias in WWII often failed to report levels of deaths and leadership cock-ups, especially in imperial Japan, fascist Germany and communist Russia. I wonder why? ;)

@stevep59 War deaths are a bad comparison. The U.S. has close to 3 million deaths every single year anyway, and those who die from this disease are almost entirely old and sick who would have died in a year or two anyway. War deaths are mainly young men who have their entire lives ahead of them. Completely different.

And you're quite ignorant about lockdown policy -- it's clear that it doesn't have any effect at all once community spread starts. New York got hit badly in March and April -- it was recording as many deaths as Italy for about a week, despite having only one-third the population -- and that managed to give it herd immunity. That's why it appears to be "working" now -- herd immunity, not the lockdown policies. The southern and western states were never hit on a large scale until June -- and this includes the leftist states of California, Oregon, and Washington, which had and have had lockdown policies as strict as New York's, but still got hit along with the rest of the country which hadn't had it before. And sure enough, now that it has hit every part of the country, it's now in decline. Funny how that works. Herd immunity ftw.

Our news media reports on nothing BUT levels of deaths and leadership cockups... so there you go!

@stevep59
You're a good lad, you know that?

@BGMan the Robert Koch Institute and many, many virologists do believe that masks work to keep the spreader from spreading. It has less to do with protecting yourself from germs but with protecting OTHERS from YOUR germs. And in that respect, masks are an important tool in reducing the spread of the virus.

Germany has had only a tenth of the cases per capita, despite initial traffic from Italy and France, mainly because of a quick lockdown in the beginning and usage of masks after loosening restrictions. So empirical evidence does suggest that masks work.

As for your last paragraph, it looks as if you are upset that the news is not being partisan enough for you. I wonder why you have to reach back all the way to the Second World War, and somehow ignore the Gulf Wars where the US press was also largely uncritical. Or the Vietnam war, which to some conservative Americans is its own "Dolchstosslegende".

@Fnordius Problem is, you'll have to keep the lockdown, masking, social distancing, and destroyed economy forever, because once you lift it you'll start getting cases. At some point you'll have to bite the bullet.

@BGMan
If the hydroxychloroquine does work, then why did Trump send to Brazil millions of doses in June instead of hoarding and using on the US hospitals? I really don't believe in this "Trump is a good guy" thing
About the media :
1: Truth hurts - nothing is rainbows and unicorns
2: Were the media supressed like you say, you would be no different from facists and communists that control the news.

@Konnash Because maybe Trump isn't as selfish as the Chinese and we have more than enough to go around, and Brazil needs it just as much as we do?

Have the upvote and downvote buttons stopped working for anyone else?
Feel free to upvote, downvote or reply to this comment to make sure, I won't judge

@Zenon Works fine for me, managed to upvote your post

@VikingGuy
Neato.

@Zenon Downvoted for fun. Worked. :P

@MiskisM
Good to know both buttons work then. Thanks

The joke is going around that Norwegians are anxiously awaiting the end of 2-meter social distancing, so they can get back to their normal 6 meters.

@Ascender Same goes for Finns as well. The supposed normal has grown to 2 km...

@Ascender

Social distancing is a new buzzword, but I think I got it. Good distance is when you cannot hear your neighbor.

Just on my way to the shop when an old lady in front of me lifted her mask, spat on the floor and then put it back on again

Like. That's disgusting at the best of times, but that's LITERALLY WHAT THE MASK IS THERE TO STOP

I can't fathom what goes through people's minds

@weelydangle This is the worst part, how those often at risk the most are the least willing to make even token sacrifices. It is an attitude similar to not wanting to wear seat belts, with the difference that you are endangering others more than yourself.

@weelydangle Nothing. Literally nothing goes through their minds. Some people look inside themselves and find nothing.

@DerDings I was going to reply that this implies things go through their minds, but you got there first.
Now I have to suggest that these people don't look inside themselves either, sounds like work...

@weelydangle For me it was an old lady on the bus who kept lifting her mask every minute to cough into her hand. Got off the bus fairly quickly.

I have seen one, ONE, guy in the past few months who actually wore a mask.

It was weird and scary.

Most Scandinavian countries are faring well. However, Sweden is not. Per capita they have more confirmed cases than the USA. Their death rate per case is also twice as high as the USA. It should be Iceland standing there. Not Sweden.

@Dearthly The swedish confirmed cases per capita is half those of the USA. The death rate per capita is around 10% higher then USAs. This does mean that the death/case is probably a lot higher too, but that could be atttributed to there having been a severe spread among care homes for the elderly earlier in the year. Of the 5,7k deaths in Sweden, 3,9k was 80+, less then 600 deaths under 60. I couldn't find a demographics breakdown for the entire USA, as the states appear very divided.

America wouldn't've needed to resort to mask wearing if they had just followed New Zealand's example and stayed home to flatten the curve and got deliveries from the essential workers in supermarkets, etc.

But it seems a lot of America would rather Burn, Loot & Murder than stop the spread of a deadly virus.

@Zenon you're absoultly right, still masks should still be used when going out of necessary needs like buying food and supplies, the issue with all these protests and riots and people not wanting to go one fucking year without going to a partying and bars and wanting be around other people,
I swear extroverts are gonna kill us all

@AmericanButterfly
This may sound over the top for a lot of people, but I'm beginning to think that martial law may be the best way to combat the spread of the virus.

Social distancing, mask wearing, all the other rules that people should follow, all enforced by constant supervision by the law, and if push comes to shove, at constant gunpoint if need be.
Sounds terrible I know, but it would work, wouldn't it?

@Zenon yeah but half the country are rioting over the police and statues and stuff,
I mean not every protester are rioting and many are being peaceful but things can escalate quickly

@Zenon
Forcing people to stay home is just not an option here. We have an aversion to the government forcing us to do such things so even when in our best interest it can be seen as tyrannical. Trump could order it, but the Democrats would be sure to turn even the Republicans against him with a media blitz on it and he'd have to declare martial law in some states.

Even so, many states did flatten the curve. My state uses masks to prevent the curve from returning. Our biggest issue is that those in charge of our state neglected to engage the illegal immigrant populations who are rather disconnected so weren't as well informed and are atm the biggest outbreaks. Luckily they seem to be working with them now. I still don't know anyone who has had it though.

Really, it's all New York, they alone spread the virus to most the country. We should have closed travel out of that state. News makes it out as bad here mostly by making comparisons of totals to small countries, but it isn't bad. Many states are barely affected and smaller cities and towns are much less affected. We have 24 states with more people than New Zealand and I think 8 with more land and each state has it's own way of doing things and it's own government. They even have their own constitutions. A state governor has all the powers of a president. So lumping all the states together and directly comparing that to any one country is meaningless. The media leave that part out. The best you can do there is using ratios (per million people), but it still suggests the actions to stop this are coming from the federal government. Our country's response is that of individual states, not a country as a whole. The feds assist and advise states, only acting when the state has failed or a common need arises like needing virus tests and vaccines.

With the rioting & looting... no, it isn't America that would rather do all that. It's our political parties and our polarized media. None of them have the country's well being in mind and the majority of people get their information from the news on TV (CNN, FOX, ABC, etc...), but that same media is siding with one party or the other. It's all talk shows, not the objective news most people think they are. So the information we get ends up being what they want us to hear and people react as they wanted them to react.

These riots didn't need to happen, the media could have reported in such a way as to help calm people down, but instead they use aggressive wording and air stories with the intent to fuel the fire. They essentially have been inciting violence. At this point I'd like our media to be taken to the courts for causing the riots. It's all political, to make the current president look bad (as if he needs help).

There are people out there working to fix the problems with police, but such stories are ignored for the latest riot which they'll call a peaceful protest as if police just out of the blue started attacking. With all this going on and no source of information untainted by one party or the other, it's no wonder things are how they are right now. Right now the media is on their final push, I doubt all this crap will let up until the elections are over (I'm serious, watch for the pressure release). We can only hope the virus can be kept in check until then and masks seem a good way to do that for now.

@Zenon

Well, to be fair, our country was founded by two groups:
Hippie-like Quakers, and Witch-burning Puritans.
99% of our politics is still that.

@Zenon I'm sorry, am I the only one who thinks transforming BLM into "Burn, Loot & Murder" is extremely misguided, inaccurate, and inappropriate?

@OlJanxSpirit
Sure, black lives do matter, but let's be honest here, there's no point in sugarcoating the fact that all the arson, the stealing, all the chaos and anarchy stopped being about George Floyd and all that ages ago