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2 years ago #9497050
@Daniel72 the Brits I work with looked like someone kicked their puppy.
....the Irish I work with.....acted like they'd kicked it.
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@Daniel72 the Brits I work with looked like someone kicked their puppy.
....the Irish I work with.....acted like they'd kicked it.
2 years ago #9497080
@Daniel72 I'm an English National and even I was rooting for Iceland... then again I kind of want Iceland as a nation to just adopt me.
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@Daniel72 I'm an English National and even I was rooting for Iceland... then again I kind of want Iceland as a nation to just adopt me.
2 years ago #9497124
Let it be a lesson for democracy: A vote is a vote. It has consequences. Don't vote for someone just because he said something funny on TV. You never know which part of his program he really will make comme true.
And don't redo the referendum until you get the result you like. It just kill the principe of democracy where the mind of everyone is taken into account.
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Let it be a lesson for democracy: A vote is a vote. It has consequences. Don't vote for someone just because he said something funny on TV. You never know which part of his program he really will make comme true.
And don't redo the referendum until you get the result you like. It just kill the principe of democracy where the mind of everyone is taken into account.
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2 years ago #9497439
@Belgianfish I see nothing inherently wrong with re-doing the referendum. You wouldn't say Scotland shouldn't have another independence referendum now, just because they had one in 2014. It's 2016, and things are different for them. Now just after Brexit the landscape has changed. People are thinking about it differently and I wouldn't see a problem with a 2nd. There'd be no reason to have a 3rd though.
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@Belgianfish I see nothing inherently wrong with re-doing the referendum. You wouldn't say Scotland shouldn't have another independence referendum now, just because they had one in 2014. It's 2016, and things are different for them. Now just after Brexit the landscape has changed. People are thinking about it differently and I wouldn't see a problem with a 2nd. There'd be no reason to have a 3rd though.
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2 years ago #9497725
@SvalTheBard Redoing the referendum simply because you got lied to? And lost? The UK gonna do referendums until either side wins with 60%+ votes?
It's called manipulation and being gullible. And it worked wonderfully on the younger generation with no experience at all with politics. The media have obvious agendas, and so does politicians. The Liberals and the Left have unfortunately been lying ever since the beginning. Had you at least listened to people such as Nigel Farage and his arguments you wouldn't be so fast as to jump the gun.
Besides. Everyone who have half a brain would do their own research, their own fact finding and come with a conclusion on their own, and not let the media and what people around you decide for you.
But once BANKERS start vouching for either side, worry. They have ONE agenda: Money, power and control. They are not interested in the public. They don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Neither does the Elite.
Personally I am glad the UK is going out. The EU is a sinking ship, politically, socially, demographically and economically.
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@SvalTheBard Redoing the referendum simply because you got lied to? And lost? The UK gonna do referendums until either side wins with 60%+ votes?
It's called manipulation and being gullible. And it worked wonderfully on the younger generation with no experience at all with politics. The media have obvious agendas, and so does politicians. The Liberals and the Left have unfortunately been lying ever since the beginning. Had you at least listened to people such as Nigel Farage and his arguments you wouldn't be so fast as to jump the gun.
Besides. Everyone who have half a brain would do their own research, their own fact finding and come with a conclusion on their own, and not let the media and what people around you decide for you.
But once BANKERS start vouching for either side, worry. They have ONE agenda: Money, power and control. They are not interested in the public. They don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Neither does the Elite.
Personally I am glad the UK is going out. The EU is a sinking ship, politically, socially, demographically and economically.
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2 years ago #9497843
You going to be happy about losing Scotland and N Ireland? We're both not very pleased with being forced out of the EU by the English. Scots only stayed last time in order to remain in the EU. Now we've got no motivation to submit to you Brits. We're out, we're taking our oil, and kicking your subs out of our port.
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You going to be happy about losing Scotland and N Ireland? We're both not very pleased with being forced out of the EU by the English. Scots only stayed last time in order to remain in the EU. Now we've got no motivation to submit to you Brits. We're out, we're taking our oil, and kicking your subs out of our port.
2 years ago #9498229
@Yakamaru No shit the bankers oppose it, you've seen how much the Pound has fallen. I don't like bankers very much either, but occasionally their interests do coincide with yours.
And yes, I have heard what Nigel Farage says. He said he would redirect the EU money to the NHS. Until he won, that is.
Let me reiterate: There will be no need for a third referendum. I will not be pushing for revotes until I win. If the remain side loses again I would accept it and grab my popcorn.
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@Yakamaru No shit the bankers oppose it, you've seen how much the Pound has fallen. I don't like bankers very much either, but occasionally their interests do coincide with yours.
And yes, I have heard what Nigel Farage says. He said he would redirect the EU money to the NHS. Until he won, that is.
Let me reiterate: There will be no need for a third referendum. I will not be pushing for revotes until I win. If the remain side loses again I would accept it and grab my popcorn.
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2 years ago #9498299
@SvalTheBard Third referendum? There won't even be a second.
The bankers, just like the Left Liberals, listened blindly to the media without questioning it. Of course they freaked out. The bankers hate instability. But, here's the thing: Currencies fluctuate all the time. This was inevitable. But it will recover. And now with the EU not being able to drag the UK down economically and politically, there will be a lot more money to be invested on domestic issues such as housing, healthcare, etc. Once the economy really start taking off, the banks will say that they were voting for Brexit the entire time, or won't say anything on the issue.
Nigel Farage did not say anything of the sort. Prove it, with a video of him saying it. He is an MEP, not MP. He has no authority, nor is he a member of the UK government.
Nor did the Leave campaign made a actual promise of the £350m a year to the NHS. They did campaign for it, yes. But until Article 50 is actually invoked, Brexit can't do shit, as they do not have any power whatsoever. So until then no one knows what they will actually do.
http://leftfootforward.org/images/2016/05/rsz_cikhd7axaaiklxc.jpg
^ Please tell me where it says "promise". It doesn't.
However though. It's not even been a WEEK since the referendum. We most likely won't see any changes for perhaps a minimum of 3 months.
Honestly I'd try and get Farage into the Parliament. He knows his shit, and and have been correct on every prediction so far for the past 17 years. He also fought for the UK and its citizens in the EU Parliament who absolutely HATED his guts, which a lot of the clips from the Parliament no doubtedly show.
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@SvalTheBard Third referendum? There won't even be a second.
The bankers, just like the Left Liberals, listened blindly to the media without questioning it. Of course they freaked out. The bankers hate instability. But, here's the thing: Currencies fluctuate all the time. This was inevitable. But it will recover. And now with the EU not being able to drag the UK down economically and politically, there will be a lot more money to be invested on domestic issues such as housing, healthcare, etc. Once the economy really start taking off, the banks will say that they were voting for Brexit the entire time, or won't say anything on the issue.
Nigel Farage did not say anything of the sort. Prove it, with a video of him saying it. He is an MEP, not MP. He has no authority, nor is he a member of the UK government.
Nor did the Leave campaign made a actual promise of the £350m a year to the NHS. They did campaign for it, yes. But until Article 50 is actually invoked, Brexit can't do shit, as they do not have any power whatsoever. So until then no one knows what they will actually do.
http://leftfootforward.org/images/2016/05/rsz_cikhd7axaaiklxc.jpg
^ Please tell me where it says "promise". It doesn't.
However though. It's not even been a WEEK since the referendum. We most likely won't see any changes for perhaps a minimum of 3 months.
Honestly I'd try and get Farage into the Parliament. He knows his shit, and and have been correct on every prediction so far for the past 17 years. He also fought for the UK and its citizens in the EU Parliament who absolutely HATED his guts, which a lot of the clips from the Parliament no doubtedly show.
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2 years ago #9498406
@Yakamaru http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html
If it was a mere "suggestion" used to garner support, not a promise, that's simply dishonest.
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@Yakamaru http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html
If it was a mere "suggestion" used to garner support, not a promise, that's simply dishonest.
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2 years ago #9498410
@SvalTheBard You're not listening to what he is saying, are you?
1. He is not promising anything.
2. He is saying that those £35m a day SHOULD rather be spent on the NHS.
3. He is not a part of the Leave campaign.
4. Whether the Leave campaign can actually do good on their promise is up to the government, which also btw, does not have anything to do with the Leave campaign.
He can make suggestions and push for it, but ultimately, he have no power. Nor is he part of the government.
Get your facts straight, and stop taking shit out of context. Not to mention twist what he is saying. There's a reason he does not take any of you seriously because you are HEARING what he is saying, but not listening and understanding.
Instead of blindly listening to the media I would recommend trying to get to actually find facts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ktojE6WQA
^ Full clip, which the "Independent" did NOT add. So I call bullshit on your claim.
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@SvalTheBard You're not listening to what he is saying, are you?
1. He is not promising anything.
2. He is saying that those £35m a day SHOULD rather be spent on the NHS.
3. He is not a part of the Leave campaign.
4. Whether the Leave campaign can actually do good on their promise is up to the government, which also btw, does not have anything to do with the Leave campaign.
He can make suggestions and push for it, but ultimately, he have no power. Nor is he part of the government.
Get your facts straight, and stop taking shit out of context. Not to mention twist what he is saying. There's a reason he does not take any of you seriously because you are HEARING what he is saying, but not listening and understanding.
Instead of blindly listening to the media I would recommend trying to get to actually find facts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ktojE6WQA
^ Full clip, which the "Independent" did NOT add. So I call bullshit on your claim.
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2 years ago #9498429
@Yakamaru
> He is not a part of the Leave campaign.
He's literally the leader of UKIP... If you're going to talk out of your ass you may as well just stop talking.
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@Yakamaru
> He is not a part of the Leave campaign.
He's literally the leader of UKIP... If you're going to talk out of your ass you may as well just stop talking.
2 years ago #9506097
@Yakamaru The same Nigel Farage that admitted he lied about everything and never even wanted to leave the EU (cause that is stupid) but instead wanted to lose marginally so that he could say "well, we tried" and fool naive morons like yourself to vote for UKIP in the future?
But hey, have fun being irrelevant in world politics while also having worse trade deals pretty much everywhere. Don't worry, it'll be fine!
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@Yakamaru The same Nigel Farage that admitted he lied about everything and never even wanted to leave the EU (cause that is stupid) but instead wanted to lose marginally so that he could say "well, we tried" and fool naive morons like yourself to vote for UKIP in the future?
But hey, have fun being irrelevant in world politics while also having worse trade deals pretty much everywhere. Don't worry, it'll be fine!
2 years ago #9500431
@Belgianfish A good lesson that democracy demands a lot from us. Meanwhile, pass the popcorn, please. Been a while since good old UK has provided us with such a show.
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@Belgianfish A good lesson that democracy demands a lot from us. Meanwhile, pass the popcorn, please. Been a while since good old UK has provided us with such a show.
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2 years ago #9500535
@Wexteen : Yup, all the politicians who created this mayem have ran away from their responsabilities. There is no way to tell what will happen next. There is even more suspence than in Game of Thrones.
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@Wexteen : Yup, all the politicians who created this mayem have ran away from their responsabilities. There is no way to tell what will happen next. There is even more suspence than in Game of Thrones.
2 years ago #9497718
Saying that chaos will entail is just outright bollocks and a lie. Unfortunately for you Humon you do not seem to understand how the EU is operating and how the Euro is fucking up everything. The EU is not democratic. It is directly anti-democratic.
There WILL be uncertainty, yes. There will be economical uncertainty, yes. If that is your definition of chaos, I wonder what you would define it as if a country went into a state of anarchy.
This is what happens when you blindly follow what the media and politicians say. Not to mention bankers. Bankers ALWAYS have an agenda: Money. If you can't figure that one out, then you are not even listening to the other side of the argument.
But, like in 1972 and 1994 when Norway were thinking of joining the EU, we voted no. Both times. Both times the EU used moronic scare and fearmongering saying that hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost, economical turmoil and lots of people would become homeless. Well. They were wrong. On both occasions. And so far, they have for the most part been wrong on a whole plethora of issues.
I am sorry, but this is bullshit. I cannot support a state that is turning anti-democratic and using fascist tactics to silence the opposition.
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Saying that chaos will entail is just outright bollocks and a lie. Unfortunately for you Humon you do not seem to understand how the EU is operating and how the Euro is fucking up everything. The EU is not democratic. It is directly anti-democratic.
There WILL be uncertainty, yes. There will be economical uncertainty, yes. If that is your definition of chaos, I wonder what you would define it as if a country went into a state of anarchy.
This is what happens when you blindly follow what the media and politicians say. Not to mention bankers. Bankers ALWAYS have an agenda: Money. If you can't figure that one out, then you are not even listening to the other side of the argument.
But, like in 1972 and 1994 when Norway were thinking of joining the EU, we voted no. Both times. Both times the EU used moronic scare and fearmongering saying that hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost, economical turmoil and lots of people would become homeless. Well. They were wrong. On both occasions. And so far, they have for the most part been wrong on a whole plethora of issues.
I am sorry, but this is bullshit. I cannot support a state that is turning anti-democratic and using fascist tactics to silence the opposition.
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2 years ago #9497727
@Yakamaru
What you're writing is bullshit! Things are a lot more complicated than you make them out to be. The EU is very, VERY democratic, perhaps even too democratic at times, which is why the law-making process takes so long! Everybody must be heard several times. And who is scaring who? Have you even followed the campaigns? Haven't you heard that the big scary EU is making all the decisions for us? That we are about to be overrun by refuges and cheap labor because of the EU? That the EU is about to collapse (and has so for what, 30-40 years now!) and the faster we leave /cut ourselves loose the better? That all our countries values are disappearing in the international EU? So who's scaring who?!
I wrote this as part of a response to another comment. It's long, but I hope you'll take the time:
"Even if Norway wanted, we couldn't just get a deal like Switzerland! Nobody can because after that deal was constructed everybody realized just how complicated it made everything. Norway is already getting a sweet deal with the EU but if anything, that's going to change in the future. That's why out prime-minister thought Norway could get away with paying the same amount of money to stay in the EEA but ended up paying a lot more. And that will only get worse in the future for several reasons, above all that we need them more than they need us! Norway needs to keep its access to the internal marked of the EU because the EU is by far our largest trading partner. It is more costly to produce things in Norway and if you add import tariffs we simply can't compete. At the same time, to protect our own marked and farmers, we put a heavy tariff on all food, plants and other things that other countries would like to sell us. That's why that even though we have one of the worlds largest exporters of pork right south of out border, we actually drive our on pork to Denmark, have it processed on a separate line and then have it returned to be resold in Norway because it is much cheaper than just having it imported! And the same with "Spanish" serrano ham that we have send all the way to Spain! We want to sell our stuff in other countries but we won't let them sell their stuff in Norway and guess what! - they're getting more and more annoyed with us because it is costing, especially our neighbors, a lot of money and jobs. We have been getting away with it because we are a small country but now that GB is seeking a similar deal, we can no longer expect to get by unnoticed. And the EU can't let us because that would make other countries wonder why they should be a part of the EU when we apparently don't have to and yet appears to get all the advantages. Yes, we pay money for that privilege but there's a reason why we keep making that deal!
And the thing about is that even though we get to put heavy tariffs on foreign products, we still have to follow most of the rules even though we, because we're not a member of the EU, don't get to make those rules. That's why you've probably notices all phone commercials on TV where the companies are being nice to us by making it a lot cheaper to use data abroad in Europe. They did it last year too and they'll do it again next year. Here's what they don't tell you: they, along with other European phone companies, have spend millions of euro fighting this because they have been using the disadvantage of tourists to make them pay extremely high fees that in no way corresponds with their actual cost. The EU made them change this, just like they limit the amount of dangerous chemicals in our hairspray and toys children, hold facebook and google responsible for not deleting the data they are collecting on us and many, many, many other things in our daily lives that we never hear about, because we live in our Norwegian bubble of ignorant bliss. But we don't get to make those rules that effect us because we're not in the EU, so we just have to hope that they other countries that are do what's best for us.
The EU-debate in Norway is practically non-existent and when it's finally pops up, it's always negative and one-sided. How could it be any different when our own politicians and companies takes credit for everything positive that comes out of the EU while they blame the EU whenever something is unpopular. And the media cares more about what their readers want to read and what gives them clicks on their web-pages than they do about giving us information that we might actually need. And us, the people, the voters, we are the ones that are truly to blame because we don't hold anyone accountable. We don't because, even though we know that we probably should make the effort, we don't take the time to get what we need to make informed decisions. So we blame the politicians, we blame the companies, we blame the media, we blame the EU but in the end, all we blame them for is our own guilty conscience for not staying informed. Not all things in life are easy and when you have to make very complicated decisions on complicated matters, you need to put in some effort. You don't skip class all year and then right before the exam expect the teacher to explain the entire curriculum in two minutes or less. That's how you create a lot of myths and false information about the EU. That's the trap we have fallen into."
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@Yakamaru
What you're writing is bullshit! Things are a lot more complicated than you make them out to be. The EU is very, VERY democratic, perhaps even too democratic at times, which is why the law-making process takes so long! Everybody must be heard several times. And who is scaring who? Have you even followed the campaigns? Haven't you heard that the big scary EU is making all the decisions for us? That we are about to be overrun by refuges and cheap labor because of the EU? That the EU is about to collapse (and has so for what, 30-40 years now!) and the faster we leave /cut ourselves loose the better? That all our countries values are disappearing in the international EU? So who's scaring who?!
I wrote this as part of a response to another comment. It's long, but I hope you'll take the time:
"Even if Norway wanted, we couldn't just get a deal like Switzerland! Nobody can because after that deal was constructed everybody realized just how complicated it made everything. Norway is already getting a sweet deal with the EU but if anything, that's going to change in the future. That's why out prime-minister thought Norway could get away with paying the same amount of money to stay in the EEA but ended up paying a lot more. And that will only get worse in the future for several reasons, above all that we need them more than they need us! Norway needs to keep its access to the internal marked of the EU because the EU is by far our largest trading partner. It is more costly to produce things in Norway and if you add import tariffs we simply can't compete. At the same time, to protect our own marked and farmers, we put a heavy tariff on all food, plants and other things that other countries would like to sell us. That's why that even though we have one of the worlds largest exporters of pork right south of out border, we actually drive our on pork to Denmark, have it processed on a separate line and then have it returned to be resold in Norway because it is much cheaper than just having it imported! And the same with "Spanish" serrano ham that we have send all the way to Spain! We want to sell our stuff in other countries but we won't let them sell their stuff in Norway and guess what! - they're getting more and more annoyed with us because it is costing, especially our neighbors, a lot of money and jobs. We have been getting away with it because we are a small country but now that GB is seeking a similar deal, we can no longer expect to get by unnoticed. And the EU can't let us because that would make other countries wonder why they should be a part of the EU when we apparently don't have to and yet appears to get all the advantages. Yes, we pay money for that privilege but there's a reason why we keep making that deal!
And the thing about is that even though we get to put heavy tariffs on foreign products, we still have to follow most of the rules even though we, because we're not a member of the EU, don't get to make those rules. That's why you've probably notices all phone commercials on TV where the companies are being nice to us by making it a lot cheaper to use data abroad in Europe. They did it last year too and they'll do it again next year. Here's what they don't tell you: they, along with other European phone companies, have spend millions of euro fighting this because they have been using the disadvantage of tourists to make them pay extremely high fees that in no way corresponds with their actual cost. The EU made them change this, just like they limit the amount of dangerous chemicals in our hairspray and toys children, hold facebook and google responsible for not deleting the data they are collecting on us and many, many, many other things in our daily lives that we never hear about, because we live in our Norwegian bubble of ignorant bliss. But we don't get to make those rules that effect us because we're not in the EU, so we just have to hope that they other countries that are do what's best for us.
The EU-debate in Norway is practically non-existent and when it's finally pops up, it's always negative and one-sided. How could it be any different when our own politicians and companies takes credit for everything positive that comes out of the EU while they blame the EU whenever something is unpopular. And the media cares more about what their readers want to read and what gives them clicks on their web-pages than they do about giving us information that we might actually need. And us, the people, the voters, we are the ones that are truly to blame because we don't hold anyone accountable. We don't because, even though we know that we probably should make the effort, we don't take the time to get what we need to make informed decisions. So we blame the politicians, we blame the companies, we blame the media, we blame the EU but in the end, all we blame them for is our own guilty conscience for not staying informed. Not all things in life are easy and when you have to make very complicated decisions on complicated matters, you need to put in some effort. You don't skip class all year and then right before the exam expect the teacher to explain the entire curriculum in two minutes or less. That's how you create a lot of myths and false information about the EU. That's the trap we have fallen into."
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2 years ago #9497760
@NorwegianDane Unless you've noticed, the EU makes laws and legislations that the member countries can't veto.
So far the EU have made 72 legislations, all of them forced upon the UK.
Ever seen one of Nigel Farage's videos and his arguments? Go do so before saying the EU is democratic. Because it's not. It's turning into an oligarchy.
The Euro is failing. Simple as that.
Look at all the fucking bailouts. And all the stagnant economies in the countries with a forced currency. Once the UK leaves the EU it will show once and for all that Pro-EU people are wrong on this issue.
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@NorwegianDane Unless you've noticed, the EU makes laws and legislations that the member countries can't veto.
So far the EU have made 72 legislations, all of them forced upon the UK.
Ever seen one of Nigel Farage's videos and his arguments? Go do so before saying the EU is democratic. Because it's not. It's turning into an oligarchy.
The Euro is failing. Simple as that.
Look at all the fucking bailouts. And all the stagnant economies in the countries with a forced currency. Once the UK leaves the EU it will show once and for all that Pro-EU people are wrong on this issue.
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2 years ago #9497771
@Yakamaru In what sense is the EU less democratic than the UK? What's the closest correspondence to the House of Lords in the EU? As far as I am aware, no position in the EU is either "for life" or "for life, inherited".
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@Yakamaru In what sense is the EU less democratic than the UK? What's the closest correspondence to the House of Lords in the EU? As far as I am aware, no position in the EU is either "for life" or "for life, inherited".
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2 years ago #9497783
@RandomSwede
1. Accountability.
2. Voting ability.
3. Decide whether laws and legislations can be implemented or not,
4. Being able to make petitions for MP's to resign if their policies are against the majority of people.
Currently the EU and its Parliament is not answering to anyone. Not even the European people. They can make laws without the people having a say in the law making process. This is not a democracy. This is the opposite of a democracy.
You can't vote them out, either. The members. Nor can you vote out the Presidents of the different parts of the EU.
You also do no have a right to recommend and vote for laws and legislations to be implemented. 60% of laws and legislations in the UK are made in Brussels and not Westminster. This is not democratic. Even if only 6% of the laws were made in Brussels, it's a matter of principle.
How do you feel if a nation other than your own can create and forcefully implement laws and legislations in your country? You'd be pissed, right? Laws and legislations you can't even vote on to be implemented or not. It's not democratic in any sense of the word. It's an oligarchy.
The UK Parliament however is democratic. If people does not like someone, they can quite easily vote to kick them out.
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@RandomSwede
1. Accountability.
2. Voting ability.
3. Decide whether laws and legislations can be implemented or not,
4. Being able to make petitions for MP's to resign if their policies are against the majority of people.
Currently the EU and its Parliament is not answering to anyone. Not even the European people. They can make laws without the people having a say in the law making process. This is not a democracy. This is the opposite of a democracy.
You can't vote them out, either. The members. Nor can you vote out the Presidents of the different parts of the EU.
You also do no have a right to recommend and vote for laws and legislations to be implemented. 60% of laws and legislations in the UK are made in Brussels and not Westminster. This is not democratic. Even if only 6% of the laws were made in Brussels, it's a matter of principle.
How do you feel if a nation other than your own can create and forcefully implement laws and legislations in your country? You'd be pissed, right? Laws and legislations you can't even vote on to be implemented or not. It's not democratic in any sense of the word. It's an oligarchy.
The UK Parliament however is democratic. If people does not like someone, they can quite easily vote to kick them out.
2 years ago #9497790
@RandomSwede
"In what sense is the EU less democratic than the UK?"
In that UK at least in words have promised to curb mass immigration, while EU hasn't.
On page 36:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf
If 56% of the citizens of the EU member states want to limit immigration from outside of EU, and if 34% would want no limits to immigration, then the probability (of representative democracy) that 23 EU member states out of 28 would vote FOR limitless immigration is about 230 parts per billion.
If the standard deviation of polling results is 1,5%, then the confidence bounds for 6-sigma would be 9% from the mean. Even at that 6-sigma confidence border, the probability of 23 out of 28 states voting FOR limitless immigration would be about 1/40000.
So the chances that we are dealing with a democracy are pretty slim.
Edit.
http://vassarstats.net/binomialX.html
n=28
k=23
p=0.34
P: 23 or more out of 28
Method 1. exact binomial calculation: 2.3022e-7 (that was the 230 parts per billion)
P: 23 or more out of 28
p=0.43 (the 6-sigma confidence border, if standard deviation is 1,5%)
Method 1. exact binomial calculation: 0.0000258 (that is the 1/40000)
P: 20 or more out of 28
p=0.43
Method 1. exact binomial calculation: 0.0022 (that is 2 parts per thousand)
Perhaps I should also note that Brussels has had more than 12 months to do something significant about EU external borders and instead they have spent all that time to come up with cunning schemes on how to redistribute.
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@RandomSwede
"In what sense is the EU less democratic than the UK?"
In that UK at least in words have promised to curb mass immigration, while EU hasn't.
On page 36:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf
If 56% of the citizens of the EU member states want to limit immigration from outside of EU, and if 34% would want no limits to immigration, then the probability (of representative democracy) that 23 EU member states out of 28 would vote FOR limitless immigration is about 230 parts per billion.
If the standard deviation of polling results is 1,5%, then the confidence bounds for 6-sigma would be 9% from the mean. Even at that 6-sigma confidence border, the probability of 23 out of 28 states voting FOR limitless immigration would be about 1/40000.
So the chances that we are dealing with a democracy are pretty slim.
Edit.
http://vassarstats.net/binomialX.html
n=28
k=23
p=0.34
P: 23 or more out of 28
Method 1. exact binomial calculation: 2.3022e-7 (that was the 230 parts per billion)
P: 23 or more out of 28
p=0.43 (the 6-sigma confidence border, if standard deviation is 1,5%)
Method 1. exact binomial calculation: 0.0000258 (that is the 1/40000)
P: 20 or more out of 28
p=0.43
Method 1. exact binomial calculation: 0.0022 (that is 2 parts per thousand)
Perhaps I should also note that Brussels has had more than 12 months to do something significant about EU external borders and instead they have spent all that time to come up with cunning schemes on how to redistribute.
2 years ago #9497829
@Yakamaru
So your idea of democracy is that a majority of the European politicians don't get to make any rules for the minority? Even though there are many rules on how to protect the minority?
I think you are about to get a very scary wake-up that you self-confidence and schadenfreude for the rest of Europa is severely misplaced.
I know Farage, I know what he stands for. How much fact-checking did you to on him and his claims? How do you feel about the way he's retracting statement after statement after the election?
As for democracy I refer to this that I wrote to another user:
"If you only count direct democracy as true democracy, then not even Switzerland are truly democratic! We have a representative democracy. If you don't, as an American, know how the EU judicial system works, then I'd be happy to briefly describe why it's very democratic!
We have a commission elected from the elected governments across Europe and a parliament elected directly at national elections. Unlike the US that only has 2 major parties, just about all European countries have many more parties, not making it a red/blue choice. Most countries even elect politicians to the parliament that want out of the EU like UKIP in England or in the case of Denmark the peoples movement against the EU on the left wing and The Danish Peoples Party on the right wing. Both parties are represented in their own group in the parliament.
But back to the the law making that I refereed to as being almost being too democratic and which slow down the legal process. Each proposal has to go through 3 rounds of treatment before in can become a law. In each round, lobbies and organizations on both sides of the matter has to have to time to research, propose changes and have the time to talk with the politicians, not only in the EU but also in the separate countries. The countries also has to have some time to figure out how it effects them and given the chance to protest. All this means that it takes about 2 years on average for a bill to become a law, but the democracy doesn't stop there!
On top of this there are councils to make up guide lines for the European policy of the future. There are meetings of the prime ministers / president, but also just the separate ministers of fishing or agriculture.
But wait, there's more! Most of the laws that comes from the EU are actually not laws but directives! That means that they are not forcing legislation on to the countries, but rather giving the national governments a time frame to make their own rules on a topic. For instance, at what range farmer can use maneuver close to a river."
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@Yakamaru
So your idea of democracy is that a majority of the European politicians don't get to make any rules for the minority? Even though there are many rules on how to protect the minority?
I think you are about to get a very scary wake-up that you self-confidence and schadenfreude for the rest of Europa is severely misplaced.
I know Farage, I know what he stands for. How much fact-checking did you to on him and his claims? How do you feel about the way he's retracting statement after statement after the election?
As for democracy I refer to this that I wrote to another user:
"If you only count direct democracy as true democracy, then not even Switzerland are truly democratic! We have a representative democracy. If you don't, as an American, know how the EU judicial system works, then I'd be happy to briefly describe why it's very democratic!
We have a commission elected from the elected governments across Europe and a parliament elected directly at national elections. Unlike the US that only has 2 major parties, just about all European countries have many more parties, not making it a red/blue choice. Most countries even elect politicians to the parliament that want out of the EU like UKIP in England or in the case of Denmark the peoples movement against the EU on the left wing and The Danish Peoples Party on the right wing. Both parties are represented in their own group in the parliament.
But back to the the law making that I refereed to as being almost being too democratic and which slow down the legal process. Each proposal has to go through 3 rounds of treatment before in can become a law. In each round, lobbies and organizations on both sides of the matter has to have to time to research, propose changes and have the time to talk with the politicians, not only in the EU but also in the separate countries. The countries also has to have some time to figure out how it effects them and given the chance to protest. All this means that it takes about 2 years on average for a bill to become a law, but the democracy doesn't stop there!
On top of this there are councils to make up guide lines for the European policy of the future. There are meetings of the prime ministers / president, but also just the separate ministers of fishing or agriculture.
But wait, there's more! Most of the laws that comes from the EU are actually not laws but directives! That means that they are not forcing legislation on to the countries, but rather giving the national governments a time frame to make their own rules on a topic. For instance, at what range farmer can use maneuver close to a river."
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2 years ago #9498166
@NorwegianDane Context is important. Do you know how the EU work? Laws? The Parliament? Who the Presidents are? How many different factions there are? Do you know who the current President of the EU are? If your answer is no to these questions, then they answer for themselves.
Reality check. The EU is NOT democratic. It is anti-democratic. Whoever told you the EU is democratic is a lunatic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QmH-7fu68
^ Irish vote in 2008. NO to the Lisbon Treaty. Got forced anyway.
Go look up the 2005 Lisbon Treaty.
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@NorwegianDane Context is important. Do you know how the EU work? Laws? The Parliament? Who the Presidents are? How many different factions there are? Do you know who the current President of the EU are? If your answer is no to these questions, then they answer for themselves.
Reality check. The EU is NOT democratic. It is anti-democratic. Whoever told you the EU is democratic is a lunatic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QmH-7fu68
^ Irish vote in 2008. NO to the Lisbon Treaty. Got forced anyway.
Go look up the 2005 Lisbon Treaty.
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2 years ago #9498338
@Yakamaru
What you mean by forced, is that they got to do another referendum on it after its revision. They voted yes, and while the results tell us a lot about the reliability of referendum results and public opinion in general, I wouldn't call it any less democratic than the first time. In these things people vote with their emotions which means that the results are pretty wafty at the best of times.
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@Yakamaru
What you mean by forced, is that they got to do another referendum on it after its revision. They voted yes, and while the results tell us a lot about the reliability of referendum results and public opinion in general, I wouldn't call it any less democratic than the first time. In these things people vote with their emotions which means that the results are pretty wafty at the best of times.
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2 years ago #9498383
@Sprout
Well, the revision was arguably only a change of paper colour and title for the most part. In these conditions, making people vote again can easily be interpreted by them as saying "You didn't get it right the first time, now give the good answer."
If it still doesn't convince you, know that Irish weren't the only one to vote NO against the Lisbon Treaty. French people did to. And they were not allowed to have a say a second time in the matter when the treaty was renamed a passed anyway. This, is a serious scar on the legitimacy of the European Union from the point of view of many french citizen.
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@Sprout
Well, the revision was arguably only a change of paper colour and title for the most part. In these conditions, making people vote again can easily be interpreted by them as saying "You didn't get it right the first time, now give the good answer."
If it still doesn't convince you, know that Irish weren't the only one to vote NO against the Lisbon Treaty. French people did to. And they were not allowed to have a say a second time in the matter when the treaty was renamed a passed anyway. This, is a serious scar on the legitimacy of the European Union from the point of view of many french citizen.
2 years ago #9499742
@Yakamaru It's true that the EU has it's issues, and that we (Ireland) were made to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty, but at the same time the EU has been crucial in Ireland's development from one of the poorest countries in Europe to the 4th richest per capita in the world in 2004 (We've since managed to mess that up, but that's another story). That change would not have been possible without Common Agricultural Policy and EU funding & support. To say we were 'forced' is very strong, and the fact that we accepted Lisbon the 2nd time around must mean that some people who voted 'no' the first time changed their mind. Ireland overall is pro-EU, so don't try and drag us into any anti-EU argument.
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@Yakamaru It's true that the EU has it's issues, and that we (Ireland) were made to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty, but at the same time the EU has been crucial in Ireland's development from one of the poorest countries in Europe to the 4th richest per capita in the world in 2004 (We've since managed to mess that up, but that's another story). That change would not have been possible without Common Agricultural Policy and EU funding & support. To say we were 'forced' is very strong, and the fact that we accepted Lisbon the 2nd time around must mean that some people who voted 'no' the first time changed their mind. Ireland overall is pro-EU, so don't try and drag us into any anti-EU argument.
2 years ago #9497763
@NorwegianDane
"The EU is very, VERY democratic, perhaps even too democratic at times, which is why the law-making process takes so long! Everybody must be heard several times."
Who is this "Everybody" you speak of?
You don't know the distinctions between democracy and republicanism, and seem also to be confusing democracy and bureaucracy.
https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Roman-republic-differ-from-Athenian-democracy
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@NorwegianDane
"The EU is very, VERY democratic, perhaps even too democratic at times, which is why the law-making process takes so long! Everybody must be heard several times."
Who is this "Everybody" you speak of?
You don't know the distinctions between democracy and republicanism, and seem also to be confusing democracy and bureaucracy.
https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Roman-republic-differ-from-Athenian-democracy
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2 years ago #9497826
@anonymousskimmer
If you only count direct democracy as true democracy, then not even Switzerland are truly democratic! We have a representative democracy. If you don't, as an American, know how the EU judicial system works, then I'd be happy to briefly describe why it's very democratic!
We have a commission elected from the elected governments across Europe and a parliament elected directly at national elections. Unlike the US that only has 2 major parties, just about all European countries have many more parties, not making it a red/blue choice. Most countries even elect politicians to the parliament that want out of the EU like UKIP in England or in the case of Denmark the peoples movement against the EU on the left wing and The Danish Peoples Party on the right wing. Both parties are represented in their own group in the parliament.
But back to the the law making that I refereed to as being almost being too democratic and which slow down the legal process. Each proposal has to go through 3 rounds of treatment before in can become a law. In each round, lobbies and organizations on both sides of the matter has to have to time to research, propose changes and have the time to talk with the politicians, not only in the EU but also in the separate countries. The countries also has to have some time to figure out how it effects them and given the chance to protest. All this means that it takes about 2 years on average for a bill to become a law, but the democracy doesn't stop there!
On top of this there are councils to make up guide lines for the European policy of the future. There are meetings of the prime ministers / president, but also just the separate ministers of fishing or agriculture.
But wait, there's more! Most of the laws that comes from the EU are actually not laws but directives! That means that they are not forcing legislation on to the countries, but rather giving the national governments a time frame to make their own rules on a topic. For instance, at what range farmer can use maneuver close to a river.
I can keep going if there's something specific you're wondering about? I've also lived in the US if you want to compare?
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@anonymousskimmer
If you only count direct democracy as true democracy, then not even Switzerland are truly democratic! We have a representative democracy. If you don't, as an American, know how the EU judicial system works, then I'd be happy to briefly describe why it's very democratic!
We have a commission elected from the elected governments across Europe and a parliament elected directly at national elections. Unlike the US that only has 2 major parties, just about all European countries have many more parties, not making it a red/blue choice. Most countries even elect politicians to the parliament that want out of the EU like UKIP in England or in the case of Denmark the peoples movement against the EU on the left wing and The Danish Peoples Party on the right wing. Both parties are represented in their own group in the parliament.
But back to the the law making that I refereed to as being almost being too democratic and which slow down the legal process. Each proposal has to go through 3 rounds of treatment before in can become a law. In each round, lobbies and organizations on both sides of the matter has to have to time to research, propose changes and have the time to talk with the politicians, not only in the EU but also in the separate countries. The countries also has to have some time to figure out how it effects them and given the chance to protest. All this means that it takes about 2 years on average for a bill to become a law, but the democracy doesn't stop there!
On top of this there are councils to make up guide lines for the European policy of the future. There are meetings of the prime ministers / president, but also just the separate ministers of fishing or agriculture.
But wait, there's more! Most of the laws that comes from the EU are actually not laws but directives! That means that they are not forcing legislation on to the countries, but rather giving the national governments a time frame to make their own rules on a topic. For instance, at what range farmer can use maneuver close to a river.
I can keep going if there's something specific you're wondering about? I've also lived in the US if you want to compare?
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2 years ago #9498202
@NorwegianDane
"Each proposal has to go through 3 rounds of treatment before in can become a law. In each round, lobbies and organizations on both sides of the matter has to have to time to research, propose changes and have the time to talk with the politicians, not only in the EU but also in the separate countries."
Lobbyists are not democracy.
I'm temperamentally a loner, and I know that significant chunks of the world population are as well. We are not organized as parties or other groups. Our only realistic shot at true representation is a democracy. Not a republic or proportional parliaments.
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@NorwegianDane
"Each proposal has to go through 3 rounds of treatment before in can become a law. In each round, lobbies and organizations on both sides of the matter has to have to time to research, propose changes and have the time to talk with the politicians, not only in the EU but also in the separate countries."
Lobbyists are not democracy.
I'm temperamentally a loner, and I know that significant chunks of the world population are as well. We are not organized as parties or other groups. Our only realistic shot at true representation is a democracy. Not a republic or proportional parliaments.
2 years ago #9498000
'@anonymousskimmer'
A person asserting a difference in modern use of democracy and republicanism is almost always riding an irony car directly toward a wall. Case in point.
Also sexual intercoursein lol at using "quora" as a source.
In actual modern use democracy refers to representative democracy, and "republic" is a increasingly meaningless term that almost every country without a monarchy uses.
You don't actually know more than all the other folks, you know less. Citing (poorly) even outdated or rarely used meanings of terms like they're someone superior to the common usage is a massive demonstration of being the most clueless person in the room.
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'@anonymousskimmer'
A person asserting a difference in modern use of democracy and republicanism is almost always riding an irony car directly toward a wall. Case in point.
Also sexual intercoursein lol at using "quora" as a source.
In actual modern use democracy refers to representative democracy, and "republic" is a increasingly meaningless term that almost every country without a monarchy uses.
You don't actually know more than all the other folks, you know less. Citing (poorly) even outdated or rarely used meanings of terms like they're someone superior to the common usage is a massive demonstration of being the most clueless person in the room.
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2 years ago #9498210
'@anonymousskimmer'
Direct democracy (as the two part term implies) is not the only form of democracy.
I've also heard that the latter only gave women the right to vote in 1991, yes thats nineteen ninety one, so lol if this was also supposed to double as a "Look how cool and advanced that system is!".
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'@anonymousskimmer'
Direct democracy (as the two part term implies) is not the only form of democracy.
I've also heard that the latter only gave women the right to vote in 1991, yes thats nineteen ninety one, so lol if this was also supposed to double as a "Look how cool and advanced that system is!".
2 years ago #9498444
@NorwegianDane "The EU is very, VERY democratic, perhaps even too democratic at times" Uh yeah no the fact that individual nations are not allowed to outlaw specific chemicals that have been proved dangerous is basically a proof of the lack of democracy in the union. Because that exact rule was not created by the EU parliament but directly by the Court of Justice, meaning that an un-elected group of people is directly deciding stuff regarding the health of the individuals countries population on a argument of economic growth.
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@NorwegianDane "The EU is very, VERY democratic, perhaps even too democratic at times" Uh yeah no the fact that individual nations are not allowed to outlaw specific chemicals that have been proved dangerous is basically a proof of the lack of democracy in the union. Because that exact rule was not created by the EU parliament but directly by the Court of Justice, meaning that an un-elected group of people is directly deciding stuff regarding the health of the individuals countries population on a argument of economic growth.
2 years ago #9497729
@Yakamaru It literally already happened. The value of the pound plummeted, Scotland and Northern Ireland are already preparing to leave the UK, and the English economy is already in shambles. It's not theoretical anymore, we can literally see the result.
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@Yakamaru It literally already happened. The value of the pound plummeted, Scotland and Northern Ireland are already preparing to leave the UK, and the English economy is already in shambles. It's not theoretical anymore, we can literally see the result.
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2 years ago #9497738
@Tommy Plummeted? Its value got reduced by 30p and people freak out like they've seen a ghost.
The GBP is already on the rise, and I would love for you to show me evidence of the economy being in shambles.
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@Tommy Plummeted? Its value got reduced by 30p and people freak out like they've seen a ghost.
The GBP is already on the rise, and I would love for you to show me evidence of the economy being in shambles.
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2 years ago #9497747
@Yakamaru If you haven't already seen the evidence, you are intentionally not looking. I don't intend to waste time on someone whose opinion cannot be changed regardless.
The pound is at its lowest value in 30 years, the UK has dropped from the fifth to the sixth highest economy in the world and probably won't even exist for more than a few more years, and your own
experts have already spelled out what this means for the GDP and overall economic growth. The only way a person could think this is a good move is if they are a nationalist and a fool.
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@Yakamaru If you haven't already seen the evidence, you are intentionally not looking. I don't intend to waste time on someone whose opinion cannot be changed regardless.
The pound is at its lowest value in 30 years, the UK has dropped from the fifth to the sixth highest economy in the world and probably won't even exist for more than a few more years, and your own
experts have already spelled out what this means for the GDP and overall economic growth. The only way a person could think this is a good move is if they are a nationalist and a fool.
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2 years ago #9497767
@Tommy I AM looking. And what I see are UK having trading partners and a way better economy than ever before. The Pound Sterling was at these levels TWO years ago, not 30. Get your facts straight. It is already going up again.
Several independent nations have already said they want to open negotiations with the UK once the UK leaves the EU. Some of them includes South Korea and Australia, not to mention Japan.
Go learn economics. Are you an economic? No? Then stop spouting crap. This doom and gloom from regressives, Liberals and the Left is becoming annoying.
Once you blindly follow the media and what the politicians you are basically intellectually incapable of listening to opposing views. And gullible.
It's not the end of the UK. The Pound Sterling is a strong as fuck currency. Thinking it will go down is just outright dumb.
Once BANKERS start vouching for either side, worry. They are only interested in money, power and control. And it shows. And, like the PEOPLE they are, they also listen to fear and scare tactics, and aren't immune to being manipulated.
Go listen to Nigel Farage and his arguments. If you don't want to, that's fine. But no not claim crap you have no idea of what is going to happen.
The economy will recover, and once Article 50 is invoked even faster so. Will give the Brexit government actual power to do anything.
The Left and Liberals are proven again and again that they are wrong on a whole plethora of issues. It's about time you are proven wrong once more, and hopefully for good.
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@Tommy I AM looking. And what I see are UK having trading partners and a way better economy than ever before. The Pound Sterling was at these levels TWO years ago, not 30. Get your facts straight. It is already going up again.
Several independent nations have already said they want to open negotiations with the UK once the UK leaves the EU. Some of them includes South Korea and Australia, not to mention Japan.
Go learn economics. Are you an economic? No? Then stop spouting crap. This doom and gloom from regressives, Liberals and the Left is becoming annoying.
Once you blindly follow the media and what the politicians you are basically intellectually incapable of listening to opposing views. And gullible.
It's not the end of the UK. The Pound Sterling is a strong as fuck currency. Thinking it will go down is just outright dumb.
Once BANKERS start vouching for either side, worry. They are only interested in money, power and control. And it shows. And, like the PEOPLE they are, they also listen to fear and scare tactics, and aren't immune to being manipulated.
Go listen to Nigel Farage and his arguments. If you don't want to, that's fine. But no not claim crap you have no idea of what is going to happen.
The economy will recover, and once Article 50 is invoked even faster so. Will give the Brexit government actual power to do anything.
The Left and Liberals are proven again and again that they are wrong on a whole plethora of issues. It's about time you are proven wrong once more, and hopefully for good.
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2 years ago #9497784
@Yakamaru Nigel Farage is a racist and an idiot. Everything you have stated is factually and demonstrably false.
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@Yakamaru Nigel Farage is a racist and an idiot. Everything you have stated is factually and demonstrably false.
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2 years ago #9497787
@Tommy
Prove to me that he is a racist and an idiot. He has been right for 17 fucking YEARS.
Calling someone a racist and an idiot is not an argument. It's a poor attempt at an argument, and frankly, a shit ad hominem attack.
Attack the arguments, not the individual. BASICS of a democracy and a debate.
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@Tommy
Prove to me that he is a racist and an idiot. He has been right for 17 fucking YEARS.
Calling someone a racist and an idiot is not an argument. It's a poor attempt at an argument, and frankly, a shit ad hominem attack.
Attack the arguments, not the individual. BASICS of a democracy and a debate.
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2 years ago #9497789
@Yakamaru I don't have to attack the arguments, because as I said before, his side won and the results are now occurring. The results are shit, therefore the arguments were shit. He hasn't been right at all, and now that's borne out. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge the facts doesn't make them less true.
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@Yakamaru I don't have to attack the arguments, because as I said before, his side won and the results are now occurring. The results are shit, therefore the arguments were shit. He hasn't been right at all, and now that's borne out. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge the facts doesn't make them less true.
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2 years ago #9498303
@Tommy Not even a week and you are talking shit. Out of your ass. Where your head reside.
Hey, I can do pointless ad hominem too.
No, seriously. This was an inevitable temporary outcome.
Also, I would recommend sourcing your shit on him being wrong on the past 17 years of correct predictions. Please, go on. Prove it.
The ones making a statement is obliged to support his/her shit with sources, facts and statistics. Otherwise they are only an ignorant moron.
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@Tommy Not even a week and you are talking shit. Out of your ass. Where your head reside.
Hey, I can do pointless ad hominem too.
No, seriously. This was an inevitable temporary outcome.
Also, I would recommend sourcing your shit on him being wrong on the past 17 years of correct predictions. Please, go on. Prove it.
The ones making a statement is obliged to support his/her shit with sources, facts and statistics. Otherwise they are only an ignorant moron.
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2 years ago #9498421
@Yakamaru Like I said, he won. He won because of dipshits like you, not because he's right though, and we are seeing what is happening as a result. Not temporary by the way, since it won't be long before the UK ceases to exist at all.
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@Yakamaru Like I said, he won. He won because of dipshits like you, not because he's right though, and we are seeing what is happening as a result. Not temporary by the way, since it won't be long before the UK ceases to exist at all.
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2 years ago #9498425
@Tommy Going to quote you on that when the UK actually blooms economically, socially and globally.
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@Tommy Going to quote you on that when the UK actually blooms economically, socially and globally.
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2 years ago #9498428
@Yakamaru Feel free. I do wonder what UKIP is going to rename itself. After Scotland and Northenr Ireland leave, I think we've decided to call what remains "Wangland."
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@Yakamaru Feel free. I do wonder what UKIP is going to rename itself. After Scotland and Northenr Ireland leave, I think we've decided to call what remains "Wangland."
2 years ago #9497749
@Yakamaru That is the most conservative and closed-minded things I've ever heard. Are you one of those people who talk down to others for having a different opinion? That's cool. Why don't you go vote fir Trump and burn down a Muslim's home whilst you're at it?
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@Yakamaru That is the most conservative and closed-minded things I've ever heard. Are you one of those people who talk down to others for having a different opinion? That's cool. Why don't you go vote fir Trump and burn down a Muslim's home whilst you're at it?
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2 years ago #9497786
@GracieTheGlaceon No. I am stating facts. And the facts are, the EU is a failed experiment. And so is the Euro.
Continued bailouts. Only 11 out of 28 countries with a GDP that is actually growing, the rest is either stagnant or have a negative growth. Forcing a common currency on countries with an already unstable economy, not allowing it to correct itself is outright dumb and will affect everyone.
You are allowed to voice your opinion regardless of what it is.
What I DO NOT enjoy are people not even bothering to look up facts on both sides and their arguments and stating things, out of context, without looking up whether things are true or not. Not to mention blindly following the opinions of others, especially the media and politicians.
When bankers start taking a side, worry. Worry a lot. They have only one agenda: Money, power and control. Banks HATE uncertainty and instability.
Suggestion: Listen to Nigel Farage and his arguments. You'd be surprised how right he has been over the 17 YEARS he's been a member of the EU Parliament.
Economy or freedom. Pick one. You can't have both.
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@GracieTheGlaceon No. I am stating facts. And the facts are, the EU is a failed experiment. And so is the Euro.
Continued bailouts. Only 11 out of 28 countries with a GDP that is actually growing, the rest is either stagnant or have a negative growth. Forcing a common currency on countries with an already unstable economy, not allowing it to correct itself is outright dumb and will affect everyone.
You are allowed to voice your opinion regardless of what it is.
What I DO NOT enjoy are people not even bothering to look up facts on both sides and their arguments and stating things, out of context, without looking up whether things are true or not. Not to mention blindly following the opinions of others, especially the media and politicians.
When bankers start taking a side, worry. Worry a lot. They have only one agenda: Money, power and control. Banks HATE uncertainty and instability.
Suggestion: Listen to Nigel Farage and his arguments. You'd be surprised how right he has been over the 17 YEARS he's been a member of the EU Parliament.
Economy or freedom. Pick one. You can't have both.
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2 years ago #9499383
@Yakamaru
You keep complaining about people not sourcing their arguments while not mentioning a single source yourself besides Nigel Farage who is a populist, keeps retracting statement after statement since the vote and in my opinion is not a good source for facts. I would hardly discribe the EU as an experiment and am wondering in what way it is failing in your opinion? When hearing positions like yours, I always wonder, have you ever considered, that bailing out other countrys and including them in the € might just be helping to stabilize them and (at least trying to) improve their peoples lives? While I don't think the british economy will fall apart completely I still very much think it is a stupid and unnecessary move to leave the EU, especially for Britain.
Also Nigel Farage totally is a racist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4dDirsf-Ss
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@Yakamaru
You keep complaining about people not sourcing their arguments while not mentioning a single source yourself besides Nigel Farage who is a populist, keeps retracting statement after statement since the vote and in my opinion is not a good source for facts. I would hardly discribe the EU as an experiment and am wondering in what way it is failing in your opinion? When hearing positions like yours, I always wonder, have you ever considered, that bailing out other countrys and including them in the € might just be helping to stabilize them and (at least trying to) improve their peoples lives? While I don't think the british economy will fall apart completely I still very much think it is a stupid and unnecessary move to leave the EU, especially for Britain.
Also Nigel Farage totally is a racist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4dDirsf-Ss
2 years ago #9497779
@Yakamaru No one's asking you to, it's just a comic. That's a comic with character reactions, it's not necessarily her own opinion, and it is 'anti-democratic' to attack her and call her work bs. just because you're upset her characters don't think like you do. If she *is* against Brexit, that's her choice, but this isn't her representation of HER opinion, it's a comical representation of how stereotypical personifications of countries are responding to Brexit. And they are comical stereotypes, because I've been to Norway several times and I have never seen someone walking around with a fish on their head. Not once. If someone has a picture of that, I'd love to see it.
I appreciate that you're trying to stick up for England's decision, but not like this, mate. We don't need people getting offended on our behalf; we're very capable of doing that ourselves. We're also very good at sticking up for ourselves, I promise, we are a wily bunch of cynical, sarcastic b*st*ds. But if you do have any ideas of what England can do after the EU, please direct them to the English Parliament, 'cause they haven't got a clue. At the moment, not many of us seem too convinced that leaving the country in the SOLE care of fear-mongering, lying English politicians who answer to no one is much better than when we were subject to a union of fear-mongering, lying politicians from other countries who answered to each other.
And because of that, this comic is hilarious. If Monty Python was still a thing, they'd be coming out with something similar. I expect Have I Got News For You already has. And I didn't read the comic as, 'Brexit is the worst idea ever,' I read it as, 'Lots of countries think this is a bad idea and we've pissed off Scotland and Ireland' - which is VERY true, check the news.
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@Yakamaru No one's asking you to, it's just a comic. That's a comic with character reactions, it's not necessarily her own opinion, and it is 'anti-democratic' to attack her and call her work bs. just because you're upset her characters don't think like you do. If she *is* against Brexit, that's her choice, but this isn't her representation of HER opinion, it's a comical representation of how stereotypical personifications of countries are responding to Brexit. And they are comical stereotypes, because I've been to Norway several times and I have never seen someone walking around with a fish on their head. Not once. If someone has a picture of that, I'd love to see it.
I appreciate that you're trying to stick up for England's decision, but not like this, mate. We don't need people getting offended on our behalf; we're very capable of doing that ourselves. We're also very good at sticking up for ourselves, I promise, we are a wily bunch of cynical, sarcastic b*st*ds. But if you do have any ideas of what England can do after the EU, please direct them to the English Parliament, 'cause they haven't got a clue. At the moment, not many of us seem too convinced that leaving the country in the SOLE care of fear-mongering, lying English politicians who answer to no one is much better than when we were subject to a union of fear-mongering, lying politicians from other countries who answered to each other.
And because of that, this comic is hilarious. If Monty Python was still a thing, they'd be coming out with something similar. I expect Have I Got News For You already has. And I didn't read the comic as, 'Brexit is the worst idea ever,' I read it as, 'Lots of countries think this is a bad idea and we've pissed off Scotland and Ireland' - which is VERY true, check the news.
2 years ago #9498070
@Yakamaru
The Euro is fucking up everything? Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to point out that Britain uses the Pound though. They do not use the Euro. So what has that to do with their leaving?
And what, precisely, is directly anti-democratic about the EU? Some details, please?
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@Yakamaru
The Euro is fucking up everything? Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to point out that Britain uses the Pound though. They do not use the Euro. So what has that to do with their leaving?
And what, precisely, is directly anti-democratic about the EU? Some details, please?
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2 years ago #9498191
@Myrica The Euro is not connected to Britannia, but it will directly affect everyone once it fails on its own. The Euro is affecting every country in a negative way. The Euro will not affect Britannia directly, but it will affect every currency.
You do not force different countries that are different in every single aspect onto a common currency. Especially not on a country with an unstable country. Not on a country that does not meet the requirements. Numerous bailouts because the EU forced currencies on unstable countries. I believe the next and last bailout will bankrupt the EU.
And if you force a common currency onto a country with an unstable economy both the Euro and the country will suffer, but the country will suffer a whole lote more. The Euro does not allow for the currency's value to fluctuate, to allow the economy to adjust for the fluctuations to prevent problems, and to make sure the economy is going in the right direction: Up and positive.
Once Britannia leaves the EU, the Euro will take a massive hit, as Britannia is around 10-12% of total trade, if there were to be no trade deals, Britannia would only lose £25 billion. The EU would lose £42 billion. In trade. Not to mention on tariffs, regulations, etc. The EU will lose a lot more. The Euro would take a much larger hit, as there are countries that have pretty much stagnant economical growth. Affect the Euro, affect the countries. It's all a huge domino effect.
However, this is only if the EU decide to be morons instead of sensible adults and negotiate much better deals with Britannia. Norway have trade with the EU as well, however these is rotten and needs to be fixed. Same as Switzerland, but theirs are actually better.
Britannia also pays tens of billions in Pounds to the EU. Simply for being a member. This will also hit the EU once Britannia leaves. Once it does, I would recommend watching the Euro closely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QmH-7fu68
^ 2008 Irish vote. The Irish people, Prime Minister of Ireland and the VAST majority of the EU Parliament were against forcing Ireland into the Lisbon Treaty. The non-elected beaurocrats just used the backdoor, causing an economical shitstorm.
Whoever say the EU is democratic have no idea on how it actually work. How all the different factions and Presidents work. Who the Presidents and members of the EU Parliament are.
The EU is not answering to anyone. There is no way to politically influence their voting and law processes. Hell, most of the laws are made behind closed doors. Netherlands, France, Denmark, etc have on several occasions had majority vote on opting out of the EU. They were all ignored. Several times.
The Lisbon Treaty is practically a constitution but made to sound nice. "The European Constitution" does not exactly sound good, does it? And if you are in it, you WILL follow laws, legislations and policies or there will be consequences. A lot of them. If you are an EU member, you will most likely be forced into it regardless of popular vote.
This is the kind of crap Nigel Farage have had to deal with for 17 years. Non-elected beaurocrats who force laws, legislations and rules regardless of the majority vote and against the people's wishes.
I believe it was the 2005 Lisbon Treaty when it was made that Nigel Farage stopped being nice guy and decided to call the EU out on their anti-democratic bullshit every time he had the chance, and boy did he. Every week.
Some may call Nigel Farage rude, but he is right every time, and so have all his predictions. I would recommend watching him take the EU on their stupid shit. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, to name a few.
Whoever say that Nigel is a fascist, racist, etc are all morons. They do not even know the crap that Nigel deals with on a daily basis. In the EU fucking Parliament.
Up until now the EU have forced upon EU members 72 legislations that pretty much everyone in the EU Parliament voted AGAINST. Nigel and the UK voted against all of them. 90% of them were forced through regardless of vote. And this will continue unless the EU are stopped.
At this rate the EU will turn into Russia, basically.
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@Myrica The Euro is not connected to Britannia, but it will directly affect everyone once it fails on its own. The Euro is affecting every country in a negative way. The Euro will not affect Britannia directly, but it will affect every currency.
You do not force different countries that are different in every single aspect onto a common currency. Especially not on a country with an unstable country. Not on a country that does not meet the requirements. Numerous bailouts because the EU forced currencies on unstable countries. I believe the next and last bailout will bankrupt the EU.
And if you force a common currency onto a country with an unstable economy both the Euro and the country will suffer, but the country will suffer a whole lote more. The Euro does not allow for the currency's value to fluctuate, to allow the economy to adjust for the fluctuations to prevent problems, and to make sure the economy is going in the right direction: Up and positive.
Once Britannia leaves the EU, the Euro will take a massive hit, as Britannia is around 10-12% of total trade, if there were to be no trade deals, Britannia would only lose £25 billion. The EU would lose £42 billion. In trade. Not to mention on tariffs, regulations, etc. The EU will lose a lot more. The Euro would take a much larger hit, as there are countries that have pretty much stagnant economical growth. Affect the Euro, affect the countries. It's all a huge domino effect.
However, this is only if the EU decide to be morons instead of sensible adults and negotiate much better deals with Britannia. Norway have trade with the EU as well, however these is rotten and needs to be fixed. Same as Switzerland, but theirs are actually better.
Britannia also pays tens of billions in Pounds to the EU. Simply for being a member. This will also hit the EU once Britannia leaves. Once it does, I would recommend watching the Euro closely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QmH-7fu68
^ 2008 Irish vote. The Irish people, Prime Minister of Ireland and the VAST majority of the EU Parliament were against forcing Ireland into the Lisbon Treaty. The non-elected beaurocrats just used the backdoor, causing an economical shitstorm.
Whoever say the EU is democratic have no idea on how it actually work. How all the different factions and Presidents work. Who the Presidents and members of the EU Parliament are.
The EU is not answering to anyone. There is no way to politically influence their voting and law processes. Hell, most of the laws are made behind closed doors. Netherlands, France, Denmark, etc have on several occasions had majority vote on opting out of the EU. They were all ignored. Several times.
The Lisbon Treaty is practically a constitution but made to sound nice. "The European Constitution" does not exactly sound good, does it? And if you are in it, you WILL follow laws, legislations and policies or there will be consequences. A lot of them. If you are an EU member, you will most likely be forced into it regardless of popular vote.
This is the kind of crap Nigel Farage have had to deal with for 17 years. Non-elected beaurocrats who force laws, legislations and rules regardless of the majority vote and against the people's wishes.
I believe it was the 2005 Lisbon Treaty when it was made that Nigel Farage stopped being nice guy and decided to call the EU out on their anti-democratic bullshit every time he had the chance, and boy did he. Every week.
Some may call Nigel Farage rude, but he is right every time, and so have all his predictions. I would recommend watching him take the EU on their stupid shit. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, to name a few.
Whoever say that Nigel is a fascist, racist, etc are all morons. They do not even know the crap that Nigel deals with on a daily basis. In the EU fucking Parliament.
Up until now the EU have forced upon EU members 72 legislations that pretty much everyone in the EU Parliament voted AGAINST. Nigel and the UK voted against all of them. 90% of them were forced through regardless of vote. And this will continue unless the EU are stopped.
At this rate the EU will turn into Russia, basically.
show replies
2 years ago #9498395
@Yakamaru
While I agree with you for the most part, I have to point out that you are mistaking Russia for USSR. USSR was a supranational unelected bureaucratic authoritarian regime, just like the EU is slowly turning to. Russia is only an independent state with an awfully popular president (in his own country).
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@Yakamaru
While I agree with you for the most part, I have to point out that you are mistaking Russia for USSR. USSR was a supranational unelected bureaucratic authoritarian regime, just like the EU is slowly turning to. Russia is only an independent state with an awfully popular president (in his own country).
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2 years ago #9498402
@MaitreLudard Yeah, sorry. I meant the USSR. Need to check if I have shit correctly written or not. :P *slaps himself*
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@MaitreLudard Yeah, sorry. I meant the USSR. Need to check if I have shit correctly written or not. :P *slaps himself*
2 years ago #9498773
'@Yakamaru'
It's not going to be "Brittania" when Scotland leaves lol.
I wonder what creepy nationalist word you'll use to refer to England/Wales.
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'@Yakamaru'
It's not going to be "Brittania" when Scotland leaves lol.
I wonder what creepy nationalist word you'll use to refer to England/Wales.
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2 years ago #9498781
@sagas Anglo-Saxons. British.
Once EU and its Euro fails in the next 5-10 years I am going to just laugh once Scotland begs to come back. Believe me, this will happen.
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@sagas Anglo-Saxons. British.
Once EU and its Euro fails in the next 5-10 years I am going to just laugh once Scotland begs to come back. Believe me, this will happen.
show replies
2 years ago #9498796
'@Yakamaru'
Anglo-Saxon doesn't work to describe a location haha. What the heck? "WHERE AM I FROM?? I'M FROM AMERICAN!".
Also lol "British" , the island is Great Britain. British and Britannia are (get this) the same exact sort of word. England isn't the whole island or even most of it, am I really gonna have to tell a dude the geography of his own country here? Yikes. I mean poor education would make sense given the rest of what you believe I suppose... but nonetheless yikes.
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'@Yakamaru'
Anglo-Saxon doesn't work to describe a location haha. What the heck? "WHERE AM I FROM?? I'M FROM AMERICAN!".
Also lol "British" , the island is Great Britain. British and Britannia are (get this) the same exact sort of word. England isn't the whole island or even most of it, am I really gonna have to tell a dude the geography of his own country here? Yikes. I mean poor education would make sense given the rest of what you believe I suppose... but nonetheless yikes.
2 years ago #9497495
Kind of guessed Humon would be on the Anti-Leave side.
I'm disappointed as Humon manages to mostly be objective and make a comic which both sides of an issue can laugh at. Things that she could have done to do so would be to include Wales being on England's side here as they voted for leave as well. And we in Norway aren't panicking. We're a bit worried, a bit scared, but we aren't panicking. Actually what is happening is that some in Norway are now pressing for a discussing to leave the EEA and join a trade-deal like Switzerland has now. Various people have proposed this. Our politicians are against Brexit and most of the media, but I find that most of us Norwegians are for Brexit or we're split on it. And though Norway might be bit against Brexit, all the other EFTA-nations are saying this brings oppurtunity.
Other things would be to include countries that would like to follow Britain's example, like the French who are discussing an exit, the Dutch who are discussing and exit, the Czech republic who are discussing an exit and even Belgium which is discussing an exit. Or that a certain non-European country *cough**cough*Turkey*cough**cough* is about to join and wants to flood Europe with their.... "workers".
And of course, you should have Russia in the background smugging and folding his hands saying "Goood, gooood". Have Scotland and Ireland cry over the result demanding a revote, threatening to leave Britain, while Wales and England celebrate, high fiveing and with the BBC which speculating that this will trigger the end of the world.
And I'm surprised, and disappointed, that Switzerland is not in this comic. They're also outside the EU. Iceland who is also outside the EU, would also be supportive as you have the Icelandic president praising Brexit and saying it's good for Norway. (http://www.thelocal.no/20160627/iceland-president-brexit-is-good-news-for-norway) That would fit well into this, having Iceland trying to calm down a very nervous and uncertain Norway
All this would make for a better comic which both sides of the debate could laugh at and enjoy.
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Kind of guessed Humon would be on the Anti-Leave side.
I'm disappointed as Humon manages to mostly be objective and make a comic which both sides of an issue can laugh at. Things that she could have done to do so would be to include Wales being on England's side here as they voted for leave as well. And we in Norway aren't panicking. We're a bit worried, a bit scared, but we aren't panicking. Actually what is happening is that some in Norway are now pressing for a discussing to leave the EEA and join a trade-deal like Switzerland has now. Various people have proposed this. Our politicians are against Brexit and most of the media, but I find that most of us Norwegians are for Brexit or we're split on it. And though Norway might be bit against Brexit, all the other EFTA-nations are saying this brings oppurtunity.
Other things would be to include countries that would like to follow Britain's example, like the French who are discussing an exit, the Dutch who are discussing and exit, the Czech republic who are discussing an exit and even Belgium which is discussing an exit. Or that a certain non-European country *cough**cough*Turkey*cough**cough* is about to join and wants to flood Europe with their.... "workers".
And of course, you should have Russia in the background smugging and folding his hands saying "Goood, gooood". Have Scotland and Ireland cry over the result demanding a revote, threatening to leave Britain, while Wales and England celebrate, high fiveing and with the BBC which speculating that this will trigger the end of the world.
And I'm surprised, and disappointed, that Switzerland is not in this comic. They're also outside the EU. Iceland who is also outside the EU, would also be supportive as you have the Icelandic president praising Brexit and saying it's good for Norway. (http://www.thelocal.no/20160627/iceland-president-brexit-is-good-news-for-norway) That would fit well into this, having Iceland trying to calm down a very nervous and uncertain Norway
All this would make for a better comic which both sides of the debate could laugh at and enjoy.
show replies
2 years ago #9497527
'@NorwaySwedenDenmark'
If Turkey is non-European you need to kick out Greece and like half the Balkans. Though probably you're ok with that judging by the sharp cool dude views you otherwise have.
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'@NorwaySwedenDenmark'
If Turkey is non-European you need to kick out Greece and like half the Balkans. Though probably you're ok with that judging by the sharp cool dude views you otherwise have.
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2 years ago #9497672
@sagas The reason Turkey isn't European is due to geography. Whatever it is that you think makes Greece and "half the Balkans" different from other European countries isn't a factor in this regard. Turkey is geographically in the Middle East, not Europe.
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@sagas The reason Turkey isn't European is due to geography. Whatever it is that you think makes Greece and "half the Balkans" different from other European countries isn't a factor in this regard. Turkey is geographically in the Middle East, not Europe.
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2 years ago #9497731
@darniil Turkey is as european as Russia. Both have a part of their countries in Europe, and the rest in Asia. Geography is a pretext for EU politicians to push Turkey out of negociations, but the real reason is that Turkey (nearly 80 million inh.) will send a very lot of underpaid workers and that could lower wages much and/or increase unemployment in Western Europe.
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@darniil Turkey is as european as Russia. Both have a part of their countries in Europe, and the rest in Asia. Geography is a pretext for EU politicians to push Turkey out of negociations, but the real reason is that Turkey (nearly 80 million inh.) will send a very lot of underpaid workers and that could lower wages much and/or increase unemployment in Western Europe.
2 years ago #9497839
'@darniil'
Where Europe and Asia end geographically is actually still a completely manmade concept based on fairly arbitrary things. That Turkish Thrace is Europe but not the general Marmara area and Aegean coast is some silly shit. Like seriously, the whole Aegean sea is Europe, but not the east coast? Buh??
All of this is even sillier if coming from people who consider Georgia, Armenia and Cyprus as Europe.
And lo and behold Cyprus is in the EU, a country closer to Syria and Lebanon than it is to Greece.
Its not like I don't disagree that like half of Turkey is Middle East, starting somewhere in central Anatolia, past Anakara I'd say. But the idea that just Turkish thrace is for some totally random reason is super silly.
What makes Greece and the Balkans different than Europe? No you misread me. I'm saying they're part of a distinct cultural sphere that is certainly in part European, and that Turkey is also part of that sphere. At least the western half of it. That cultural sphere also bleeds further east into the Levant in general.
Fact is that whole former Ottoman area has lots of cultural common features. The idea that it just ends at the Bosphorus is silly.
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'@darniil'
Where Europe and Asia end geographically is actually still a completely manmade concept based on fairly arbitrary things. That Turkish Thrace is Europe but not the general Marmara area and Aegean coast is some silly shit. Like seriously, the whole Aegean sea is Europe, but not the east coast? Buh??
All of this is even sillier if coming from people who consider Georgia, Armenia and Cyprus as Europe.
And lo and behold Cyprus is in the EU, a country closer to Syria and Lebanon than it is to Greece.
Its not like I don't disagree that like half of Turkey is Middle East, starting somewhere in central Anatolia, past Anakara I'd say. But the idea that just Turkish thrace is for some totally random reason is super silly.
What makes Greece and the Balkans different than Europe? No you misread me. I'm saying they're part of a distinct cultural sphere that is certainly in part European, and that Turkey is also part of that sphere. At least the western half of it. That cultural sphere also bleeds further east into the Levant in general.
Fact is that whole former Ottoman area has lots of cultural common features. The idea that it just ends at the Bosphorus is silly.
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2 years ago #9501647
@sagas
http://i.imgur.com/jLZTk9I.jpg
No, seriously. I do.
> Like seriously, the whole Aegean sea is Europe, but not the east coast? Buh??
Well, why stop with the Aegean Sea? Why not the entire Mediterranean Sea? I mean, the Aegean could be considered a small part of the overall Mediterranean, and since we have the north coast of the Mediterranean in Europe, why not the south coast?
The question obviously becomes, "Where do you draw the line?" Is "Europe" based on physical location, or is it based on culture? No matter where the line is drawn, yes, it'll be completely arbitrary. This much is true. We could go with political borders, declaring that Russia is entirely Europe, (even though it's geographically in Asia), and then arbitrarily decide that Mongolia and Kazakhstan are not Europe "just because", even though they border a European nation. (The same could be said for Georgia and Azerbaijan.) Then we could slingshot that west through the Black Sea into the Aegean, (by way of Turkey's northwestern border), and bisect the Mediterranean through the Strait of Gibraltar. (But then, oh no, do we include Greenland as part of Europe, or is that North America?)
Going back to the second sentence of the preceding paragraph, whether the arbitrary line that is drawn is political, geographic, or cultural, something's going to get cut off in the middle. Like, if we go with the cultural demarcation, do we include East Thrace as part of Europe but not the rest of Turkey, cutting the country into a European and a Middle Eastern part? What about with Russia? The farther east one goes, the farther away from Moscow and the rest of Europe, how culturally European are the locals? In fact, what does it even mean to be "culturally European"? (I don't think there is such a thing as "culturally European" - Europe has many different cultures and subcultures, but there is no overarching culture that is "European". The Portuguese are quite different from the Finns, the Irish from the Ukrainians.)
And for a geographic/geologic interpretation, using water as a border has been done for countless generations. Mountains, too. As mentioned earlier, the Mediterranean would be an obvious choice for a line of demarcation - "north" of the Mediterranean is Europe, "south" is Africa. "West" isn't a concern, due to the Strait, but "east" does become problematic. Hopping northeast a bit, the Caucasus Mountains are a convenient natural formation to mark the limits of Europe. But how do we link the Mediterranean and the Caucasus? The obvious route is via the Black Sea. But, again, we reach the problem of Turkey when we hit the Bosphorus, as you mentioned. And we have a similar problem with Russia: the Caucasus connect to the Caspian Sea to form a nice border with that body of water, but where do we go from there? Do we follow the Volga River north into Russia to the Rybinsk Reservoir, to Lake Beloye, Lake Onega, and then to the White Sea? (The idea almost smacks of the reverse of post-War border-drawing, but instead of merging disparate cultures into one country because of physical proximity, we're dividing political nations based upon geographic formations.)
> The idea that it just ends at the Bosphorus is silly.
You're absolutely right. It is silly. What's also silly is including a large portion of a country that is not European in the EU just because a smaller portion of it happens to be in physical proximity to European nations and happens to have a culture similar to Europe's. (Again, whatever "culturally European" means.)
Since whatever decision is made will end up being arbitrary, I say we combine the political and geographic aspects. Exclude Turkey and Russia from "Europe", and let the rest of the western nations on the Eurasian Plate (plus Iceland, and Greenland if they want) be "Europe".
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@sagas
http://i.imgur.com/jLZTk9I.jpg
No, seriously. I do.
> Like seriously, the whole Aegean sea is Europe, but not the east coast? Buh??
Well, why stop with the Aegean Sea? Why not the entire Mediterranean Sea? I mean, the Aegean could be considered a small part of the overall Mediterranean, and since we have the north coast of the Mediterranean in Europe, why not the south coast?
The question obviously becomes, "Where do you draw the line?" Is "Europe" based on physical location, or is it based on culture? No matter where the line is drawn, yes, it'll be completely arbitrary. This much is true. We could go with political borders, declaring that Russia is entirely Europe, (even though it's geographically in Asia), and then arbitrarily decide that Mongolia and Kazakhstan are not Europe "just because", even though they border a European nation. (The same could be said for Georgia and Azerbaijan.) Then we could slingshot that west through the Black Sea into the Aegean, (by way of Turkey's northwestern border), and bisect the Mediterranean through the Strait of Gibraltar. (But then, oh no, do we include Greenland as part of Europe, or is that North America?)
Going back to the second sentence of the preceding paragraph, whether the arbitrary line that is drawn is political, geographic, or cultural, something's going to get cut off in the middle. Like, if we go with the cultural demarcation, do we include East Thrace as part of Europe but not the rest of Turkey, cutting the country into a European and a Middle Eastern part? What about with Russia? The farther east one goes, the farther away from Moscow and the rest of Europe, how culturally European are the locals? In fact, what does it even mean to be "culturally European"? (I don't think there is such a thing as "culturally European" - Europe has many different cultures and subcultures, but there is no overarching culture that is "European". The Portuguese are quite different from the Finns, the Irish from the Ukrainians.)
And for a geographic/geologic interpretation, using water as a border has been done for countless generations. Mountains, too. As mentioned earlier, the Mediterranean would be an obvious choice for a line of demarcation - "north" of the Mediterranean is Europe, "south" is Africa. "West" isn't a concern, due to the Strait, but "east" does become problematic. Hopping northeast a bit, the Caucasus Mountains are a convenient natural formation to mark the limits of Europe. But how do we link the Mediterranean and the Caucasus? The obvious route is via the Black Sea. But, again, we reach the problem of Turkey when we hit the Bosphorus, as you mentioned. And we have a similar problem with Russia: the Caucasus connect to the Caspian Sea to form a nice border with that body of water, but where do we go from there? Do we follow the Volga River north into Russia to the Rybinsk Reservoir, to Lake Beloye, Lake Onega, and then to the White Sea? (The idea almost smacks of the reverse of post-War border-drawing, but instead of merging disparate cultures into one country because of physical proximity, we're dividing political nations based upon geographic formations.)
> The idea that it just ends at the Bosphorus is silly.
You're absolutely right. It is silly. What's also silly is including a large portion of a country that is not European in the EU just because a smaller portion of it happens to be in physical proximity to European nations and happens to have a culture similar to Europe's. (Again, whatever "culturally European" means.)
Since whatever decision is made will end up being arbitrary, I say we combine the political and geographic aspects. Exclude Turkey and Russia from "Europe", and let the rest of the western nations on the Eurasian Plate (plus Iceland, and Greenland if they want) be "Europe".
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2 years ago #9501815
'@darniil'
"Well, why stop with the Aegean Sea? Why not the entire Mediterranean Sea? I mean, the Aegean could be considered a small part of the overall Mediterranean, and since we have the north coast of the Mediterranean in Europe, why not the south coast?"
If you cross from France to Algeria, from Spain to Morocco, Italy to Libya, there is a noticeably HUGE cultural shift. Even a huge physical geographic shift.
If you cross from Athens to Izmir, there is not.
"
The question obviously becomes, "Where do you draw the line?" Is "Europe" based on physical location, or is it based on culture? No matter where the line is drawn, yes, it'll be completely arbitrary. This much is true. We could go with political borders, declaring that Russia is entirely Europe, (even though it's geographically in Asia),"
There is no definition that describs Russia as geographically in Asia, just that the majority of it is.
" and then arbitrarily decide that Mongolia and Kazakhstan are not Europe "just because", even though they border a European nation."
Mongolia and Kazakhstan border Asian Russia, and in the latter's case kinda sorta European Russia (though not with a populated area on both parts. The major cities and capials of Kaz are deep in Central Asia, and Mongolia isn't even on the table.
You say all this like Russia has to be an either/or proposition, which it doesn't.
"Going back to the second sentence of the preceding paragraph, whether the arbitrary line that is drawn is political, geographic, or cultural, something's going to get cut off in the middle. Like, if we go with the cultural demarcation, do we include East Thrace as part of Europe but not the rest of Turkey, cutting the country into a European and a Middle Eastern part? What about with Russia? The farther east one goes, the farther away from Moscow and the rest of Europe, how culturally European are the locals? In fact, what does it even mean to be "culturally European"? (I don't think there is such a thing as "culturally European" - Europe has many different cultures and subcultures, but there is no overarching culture that is "European". The Portuguese are quite different from the Finns, the Irish from the Ukrainians.)"
I agree with most of this, but perhaps part of my problem is the insistence on demarcation in the first place. Why can't certain countries be considered transitional, both at once. Rather than awkwardly tossed this way or that way.
"And for a geographic/geologic interpretation, using water as a border has been done for countless generations. Mountains, too."
Yes, but usually with actual importance and heft to them. I've been to the Bosphorus, its not remarkable as a border in the slightest. No more than the lower Hudson river anyway.
"You're absolutely right. It is silly. What's also silly is including a large portion of a country that is not European in the EU "
Your all over the place here. You were talking about how the cultural definition is vague and subjective, and that the Bosphorus if anything was just a convenient bit of unimportant standard setting, and yet all of a sudden now Turkey can't join the EU because "it isn't in Europe". This is completely inconsistent. By your own arguments you have no reason to sharply exclude the nation of Turkey from the EU, you refused (even here) to exclude it culturally, and the idea that the semi-arbitrary physical standard decides the fates of a matter of human geography is completely ridiculous. The logic your following isn't leaning toward exclusion, and it's self admitted shallow grounds for it.
"Since whatever decision is made will end up being arbitrary, I say we combine the political and geographic aspects. Exclude Turkey and Russia from "Europe", and let the rest of the western nations on the Eurasian Plate (plus Iceland, and Greenland if they want) be "Europe"."
Except there's a little issue here that above all else highlights the absurdity of Turkey being excluded.
Malta and most of all Cyprus are in the EU. And are not on the Eurasian plate. Malta at least has heavy proximity to Italy, Cyprus isn't even close to Greece by the distance standards of the region. The majority of Turkey is farther northwest toward Europe than it is.
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'@darniil'
"Well, why stop with the Aegean Sea? Why not the entire Mediterranean Sea? I mean, the Aegean could be considered a small part of the overall Mediterranean, and since we have the north coast of the Mediterranean in Europe, why not the south coast?"
If you cross from France to Algeria, from Spain to Morocco, Italy to Libya, there is a noticeably HUGE cultural shift. Even a huge physical geographic shift.
If you cross from Athens to Izmir, there is not.
"
The question obviously becomes, "Where do you draw the line?" Is "Europe" based on physical location, or is it based on culture? No matter where the line is drawn, yes, it'll be completely arbitrary. This much is true. We could go with political borders, declaring that Russia is entirely Europe, (even though it's geographically in Asia),"
There is no definition that describs Russia as geographically in Asia, just that the majority of it is.
" and then arbitrarily decide that Mongolia and Kazakhstan are not Europe "just because", even though they border a European nation."
Mongolia and Kazakhstan border Asian Russia, and in the latter's case kinda sorta European Russia (though not with a populated area on both parts. The major cities and capials of Kaz are deep in Central Asia, and Mongolia isn't even on the table.
You say all this like Russia has to be an either/or proposition, which it doesn't.
"Going back to the second sentence of the preceding paragraph, whether the arbitrary line that is drawn is political, geographic, or cultural, something's going to get cut off in the middle. Like, if we go with the cultural demarcation, do we include East Thrace as part of Europe but not the rest of Turkey, cutting the country into a European and a Middle Eastern part? What about with Russia? The farther east one goes, the farther away from Moscow and the rest of Europe, how culturally European are the locals? In fact, what does it even mean to be "culturally European"? (I don't think there is such a thing as "culturally European" - Europe has many different cultures and subcultures, but there is no overarching culture that is "European". The Portuguese are quite different from the Finns, the Irish from the Ukrainians.)"
I agree with most of this, but perhaps part of my problem is the insistence on demarcation in the first place. Why can't certain countries be considered transitional, both at once. Rather than awkwardly tossed this way or that way.
"And for a geographic/geologic interpretation, using water as a border has been done for countless generations. Mountains, too."
Yes, but usually with actual importance and heft to them. I've been to the Bosphorus, its not remarkable as a border in the slightest. No more than the lower Hudson river anyway.
"You're absolutely right. It is silly. What's also silly is including a large portion of a country that is not European in the EU "
Your all over the place here. You were talking about how the cultural definition is vague and subjective, and that the Bosphorus if anything was just a convenient bit of unimportant standard setting, and yet all of a sudden now Turkey can't join the EU because "it isn't in Europe". This is completely inconsistent. By your own arguments you have no reason to sharply exclude the nation of Turkey from the EU, you refused (even here) to exclude it culturally, and the idea that the semi-arbitrary physical standard decides the fates of a matter of human geography is completely ridiculous. The logic your following isn't leaning toward exclusion, and it's self admitted shallow grounds for it.
"Since whatever decision is made will end up being arbitrary, I say we combine the political and geographic aspects. Exclude Turkey and Russia from "Europe", and let the rest of the western nations on the Eurasian Plate (plus Iceland, and Greenland if they want) be "Europe"."
Except there's a little issue here that above all else highlights the absurdity of Turkey being excluded.
Malta and most of all Cyprus are in the EU. And are not on the Eurasian plate. Malta at least has heavy proximity to Italy, Cyprus isn't even close to Greece by the distance standards of the region. The majority of Turkey is farther northwest toward Europe than it is.
2 years ago #9497616
@NorwaySwedenDenmark Actually countries like France aren't considering something like this: those French are indeed a minority (at least 62% are pro remain correct me if it is wrong). Those minorities are always present in democratic states.
And Turkey isn't entering in EU! They have started the process to enter but they are far from entering. What they have done recently is a treaty with EU which allows them to free travel in Europe and take some money's from the EU but they have to keep/take back immigrants.
We should say that (at least in Italy) many politicians are now calling for unity. For example this group which is in the European Parliament is on the side of Farage, but now call unity for EU by saying that "EU isn't a good thing right now. But you haven't to throw it away but to change it. And you do this by staying In and not by going Out"(those are not the exact words. The group is called "Movimento 5 stelle")
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@NorwaySwedenDenmark Actually countries like France aren't considering something like this: those French are indeed a minority (at least 62% are pro remain correct me if it is wrong). Those minorities are always present in democratic states.
And Turkey isn't entering in EU! They have started the process to enter but they are far from entering. What they have done recently is a treaty with EU which allows them to free travel in Europe and take some money's from the EU but they have to keep/take back immigrants.
We should say that (at least in Italy) many politicians are now calling for unity. For example this group which is in the European Parliament is on the side of Farage, but now call unity for EU by saying that "EU isn't a good thing right now. But you haven't to throw it away but to change it. And you do this by staying In and not by going Out"(those are not the exact words. The group is called "Movimento 5 stelle")
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2 years ago #9497628
@Svervegian 41 % says they'd vote to leave though, which is a really high number and not such a small minority. And France is the country in the EU with the highest negative opinion of the union with the exception of Greece and the Czech Republic.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3660013/Could-FREXIT-French-far-right-leader-Marine-Le-Pen-calls-referendum-France-s-EU-membership-wake-Brexit-vote.html
http://www.vg.no/spesial/2016/eu-ut-eller-bli/
Sir John Major has said that Turkey could join in as little as a decade, so it's not like they're not going to join in the year 3000 as mr. Cameron claimed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3655236/Nailed-four-big-EU-lies-Talks-Turkey-stall-Brexit-WON-T-spark-trade-war-say-Germans-Brussels-NOT-reform-open-borders-deportation-jobless-EU-migrants-myth.html
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@Svervegian 41 % says they'd vote to leave though, which is a really high number and not such a small minority. And France is the country in the EU with the highest negative opinion of the union with the exception of Greece and the Czech Republic.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3660013/Could-FREXIT-French-far-right-leader-Marine-Le-Pen-calls-referendum-France-s-EU-membership-wake-Brexit-vote.html
http://www.vg.no/spesial/2016/eu-ut-eller-bli/
Sir John Major has said that Turkey could join in as little as a decade, so it's not like they're not going to join in the year 3000 as mr. Cameron claimed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3655236/Nailed-four-big-EU-lies-Talks-Turkey-stall-Brexit-WON-T-spark-trade-war-say-Germans-Brussels-NOT-reform-open-borders-deportation-jobless-EU-migrants-myth.html
2 years ago #9497664
@Svervegian I want to apologise for spreading misinformation. Sir John Major didn't claim that Turkey could join in as little as a decade, but that they wouldn't join for at least two or three decades and was taken out of context. I will be more careful next time.
Still, that doesn't mean that Turkish membership draws nearer and that they are about to join soon.
Reforming the EU would be a very nice thing and I wish it could come to that, but frankly, I have no hope for such a miracle as they have countered every move to try to.
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@Svervegian I want to apologise for spreading misinformation. Sir John Major didn't claim that Turkey could join in as little as a decade, but that they wouldn't join for at least two or three decades and was taken out of context. I will be more careful next time.
Still, that doesn't mean that Turkish membership draws nearer and that they are about to join soon.
Reforming the EU would be a very nice thing and I wish it could come to that, but frankly, I have no hope for such a miracle as they have countered every move to try to.
2 years ago #9497624
@NorwaySwedenDenmark Yeah not really the funniest most objective comic from Humon :/ though it shows most of what is happening right now rather accurately. I am very much pro leave though. The whole idea behind Eu is great and all but the idea was flawed at execution and at this point it is too damn broken to be fixed.
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@NorwaySwedenDenmark Yeah not really the funniest most objective comic from Humon :/ though it shows most of what is happening right now rather accurately. I am very much pro leave though. The whole idea behind Eu is great and all but the idea was flawed at execution and at this point it is too damn broken to be fixed.
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2 years ago #9497630
@thorbjorn42gbf I think it shows the chaos and doomesday talking clearly, but Scotland and Northern Ireland are not represented in an honest way here. They're like "Yeah, we'e gonna leave. Have fun on your own". When how they're really acting is more like "HOW DARE YOU VOTE TO LEAVE! YOU PROMISED THAT IF I (Scotland) REMAINED THAT YOU'D NOT LEAVE! I DEMAND A SECOND REFERENDUM" "On the EU or Scottish Independence?" asks England. "BOTH!!!"
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@thorbjorn42gbf I think it shows the chaos and doomesday talking clearly, but Scotland and Northern Ireland are not represented in an honest way here. They're like "Yeah, we'e gonna leave. Have fun on your own". When how they're really acting is more like "HOW DARE YOU VOTE TO LEAVE! YOU PROMISED THAT IF I (Scotland) REMAINED THAT YOU'D NOT LEAVE! I DEMAND A SECOND REFERENDUM" "On the EU or Scottish Independence?" asks England. "BOTH!!!"
2 years ago #9497666
@thorbjorn42gbf It "shows [things] rather accurately", but it's not objective?
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@thorbjorn42gbf It "shows [things] rather accurately", but it's not objective?
2 years ago #9497649
@NorwaySwedenDenmark
Long time fan of Humon but I created an account today just to reply to BS you're writing! I'm sick and tired of the EU discussion in Norway being filled with myths and false data about the EU. Our self-absorbed nationalism makes us think that all that is great must come from Norway while all that is bad must come from the outside and the rest of Europe is just holding its breath to please us.
Even if Norway wanted, we couldn't just get a deal like Switzerland! Nobody can because after that deal was constructed everybody realized just how complicated it made everything. Norway is already getting a sweet deal with the EU but if anything, that's going to change in the future. That's why out prime-minister thought Norway could get away with paying the same amount of money to stay in the EEA but ended up paying a lot more. And that will only get worse in the future for several reasons, above all that we need them more than they need us! Norway needs to keep its access to the internal marked of the EU because the EU is by far our largest trading partner. It is more costly to produce things in Norway and if you add import tariffs we simply can't compete. At the same time, to protect our own marked and farmers, we put a heavy tariff on all food, plants and other things that other countries would like to sell us. That's why that even though we have one of the worlds largest exporters of pork right south of out border, we actually drive our on pork to Denmark, have it processed on a separate line and then have it returned to be resold in Norway because it is much cheaper than just having it imported! And the same with "Spanish" serrano ham that we have send all the way to Spain! We want to sell our stuff in other countries but we won't let them sell their stuff in Norway and guess what! - they're getting more and more annoyed with us because it is costing, especially our neighbors, a lot of money and jobs. We have been getting away with it because we are a small country but now that GB is seeking a similar deal, we can no longer expect to get by unnoticed. And the EU can't let us because that would make other countries wonder why they should be a part of the EU when we apparently don't have to and yet appears to get all the advantages. Yes, we pay money for that privilege but there's a reason why we keep making that deal!
And the thing about is that even though we get to put heavy tariffs on foreign products, we still have to follow most of the rules even though we, because we're not a member of the EU, don't get to make those rules. That's why you've probably notices all phone commercials on TV where the companies are being nice to us by making it a lot cheaper to use data abroad in Europe. They did it last year too and they'll do it again next year. Here's what they don't tell you: they, along with other European phone companies, have spend millions of euro fighting this because they have been using the disadvantage of tourists to make them pay extremely high fees that in no way corresponds with their actual cost. The EU made them change this, just like they limit the amount of dangerous chemicals in our hairspray and toys children, hold facebook and google responsible for not deleting the data they are collecting on us and many, many, many other things in our daily lives that we never hear about, because we live in our Norwegian bubble of ignorant bliss. But we don't get to make those rules that effect us because we're not in the EU, so we just have to hope that they other countries that are do what's best for us.
Which bring us to Turkey that you claim is about to join the EU. Here's the funny thing about that: if Norway HAD been a member of the EU, we could actually veto that! All members of the EU has to accept a new member, which is one of the reasons why Turkey can't join because you can't have a member of the EU that doesn't recognize another member of the EU, like in the case of Turkey and Cypress that is already a member. Even if that should change and even if they solve the many, many other problems, there's already a bunch of countries that have said that they will veto Turkey becoming a member of the EU. All that has changed lately is that they've begun discussing the problems and I actually don't think that's a bad thing. In the past, that process alone brought many positive changes to Turkey from a European perspective and it was when the negotiating stopped that things took a turn for the worse in Turkey.
The EU-debate in Norway is practically non-existent and when it's finally pops up, it's always negative and one-sided. How could it be any different when our politicians and companies takes credit for everything positive that comes out of the EU while they blame the EU whenever something is unpopular. And the media cares more about what their readers want to read and what gives them clicks on their web-pages than they do about giving us information that we might actually need. And us, the people, the voters, we are the ones that a truly to blame because we don't hold anyone accountable. We don't because, even though we know that we probably should make the effort, we don't take the time to get what we need to make informed decisions. So we blame the politicians, we blame the companies, we blame the media, we blame the EU but in the end, all we blame them for is our own guilty conscience. Not all things in life is easy and when you have to make very complicated decisions on complected matters, you need to put in some effort. You don't skip class all year and then right before the exam expect the teacher to explain curriculum in two minutes or less. That's how you create a lot of myths and false information. That's the trap we have fallen into.
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@NorwaySwedenDenmark
Long time fan of Humon but I created an account today just to reply to BS you're writing! I'm sick and tired of the EU discussion in Norway being filled with myths and false data about the EU. Our self-absorbed nationalism makes us think that all that is great must come from Norway while all that is bad must come from the outside and the rest of Europe is just holding its breath to please us.
Even if Norway wanted, we couldn't just get a deal like Switzerland! Nobody can because after that deal was constructed everybody realized just how complicated it made everything. Norway is already getting a sweet deal with the EU but if anything, that's going to change in the future. That's why out prime-minister thought Norway could get away with paying the same amount of money to stay in the EEA but ended up paying a lot more. And that will only get worse in the future for several reasons, above all that we need them more than they need us! Norway needs to keep its access to the internal marked of the EU because the EU is by far our largest trading partner. It is more costly to produce things in Norway and if you add import tariffs we simply can't compete. At the same time, to protect our own marked and farmers, we put a heavy tariff on all food, plants and other things that other countries would like to sell us. That's why that even though we have one of the worlds largest exporters of pork right south of out border, we actually drive our on pork to Denmark, have it processed on a separate line and then have it returned to be resold in Norway because it is much cheaper than just having it imported! And the same with "Spanish" serrano ham that we have send all the way to Spain! We want to sell our stuff in other countries but we won't let them sell their stuff in Norway and guess what! - they're getting more and more annoyed with us because it is costing, especially our neighbors, a lot of money and jobs. We have been getting away with it because we are a small country but now that GB is seeking a similar deal, we can no longer expect to get by unnoticed. And the EU can't let us because that would make other countries wonder why they should be a part of the EU when we apparently don't have to and yet appears to get all the advantages. Yes, we pay money for that privilege but there's a reason why we keep making that deal!
And the thing about is that even though we get to put heavy tariffs on foreign products, we still have to follow most of the rules even though we, because we're not a member of the EU, don't get to make those rules. That's why you've probably notices all phone commercials on TV where the companies are being nice to us by making it a lot cheaper to use data abroad in Europe. They did it last year too and they'll do it again next year. Here's what they don't tell you: they, along with other European phone companies, have spend millions of euro fighting this because they have been using the disadvantage of tourists to make them pay extremely high fees that in no way corresponds with their actual cost. The EU made them change this, just like they limit the amount of dangerous chemicals in our hairspray and toys children, hold facebook and google responsible for not deleting the data they are collecting on us and many, many, many other things in our daily lives that we never hear about, because we live in our Norwegian bubble of ignorant bliss. But we don't get to make those rules that effect us because we're not in the EU, so we just have to hope that they other countries that are do what's best for us.
Which bring us to Turkey that you claim is about to join the EU. Here's the funny thing about that: if Norway HAD been a member of the EU, we could actually veto that! All members of the EU has to accept a new member, which is one of the reasons why Turkey can't join because you can't have a member of the EU that doesn't recognize another member of the EU, like in the case of Turkey and Cypress that is already a member. Even if that should change and even if they solve the many, many other problems, there's already a bunch of countries that have said that they will veto Turkey becoming a member of the EU. All that has changed lately is that they've begun discussing the problems and I actually don't think that's a bad thing. In the past, that process alone brought many positive changes to Turkey from a European perspective and it was when the negotiating stopped that things took a turn for the worse in Turkey.
The EU-debate in Norway is practically non-existent and when it's finally pops up, it's always negative and one-sided. How could it be any different when our politicians and companies takes credit for everything positive that comes out of the EU while they blame the EU whenever something is unpopular. And the media cares more about what their readers want to read and what gives them clicks on their web-pages than they do about giving us information that we might actually need. And us, the people, the voters, we are the ones that a truly to blame because we don't hold anyone accountable. We don't because, even though we know that we probably should make the effort, we don't take the time to get what we need to make informed decisions. So we blame the politicians, we blame the companies, we blame the media, we blame the EU but in the end, all we blame them for is our own guilty conscience. Not all things in life is easy and when you have to make very complicated decisions on complected matters, you need to put in some effort. You don't skip class all year and then right before the exam expect the teacher to explain curriculum in two minutes or less. That's how you create a lot of myths and false information. That's the trap we have fallen into.
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2 years ago #9497846
@NorwaySwedenDenmark Despite your scaremongering about the imminent arrival of a bunch of scary brown people, Turkey is nowhere close to being eligible to join the EU. In fact, they are becoming less eligible as time goes on under Erdogan. Cut the crap please.
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@NorwaySwedenDenmark Despite your scaremongering about the imminent arrival of a bunch of scary brown people, Turkey is nowhere close to being eligible to join the EU. In fact, they are becoming less eligible as time goes on under Erdogan. Cut the crap please.
2 years ago #9497881
@NorwaySwedenDenmark
Be careful. Norway is not talking about leaving the EEA. Nobody is seriusly doing that except for a few right-wing nationalists and ex-communists. We are in fact reacting the way the comic is drawing us.
I am not so sure you should be doing political and/or economics analysis, because it seems like you are basing your information on the comments on nettavisen.no, which are wrong 95% of the time.
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@NorwaySwedenDenmark
Be careful. Norway is not talking about leaving the EEA. Nobody is seriusly doing that except for a few right-wing nationalists and ex-communists. We are in fact reacting the way the comic is drawing us.
I am not so sure you should be doing political and/or economics analysis, because it seems like you are basing your information on the comments on nettavisen.no, which are wrong 95% of the time.
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2 years ago #9498268
@IrquiM Not really the way the comic is drawing us. We're not panicking, but we're kind of worried. It's not just communists and natonalists, but also Nei til EU is also pressing for it, unless you count them as former communists. Still, I don't see why communists and nationalists should not count as it's the same people who are pressing the debate in other countries.
I see little chance of us leaving the EEA anytime soon, but a debate about it might arise.
Though I know I've been criticised for the use of my sources, and heeded the warnings, other than Turkish membership, I'd like to know where you'd put falsehood in what I've said
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@IrquiM Not really the way the comic is drawing us. We're not panicking, but we're kind of worried. It's not just communists and natonalists, but also Nei til EU is also pressing for it, unless you count them as former communists. Still, I don't see why communists and nationalists should not count as it's the same people who are pressing the debate in other countries.
I see little chance of us leaving the EEA anytime soon, but a debate about it might arise.
Though I know I've been criticised for the use of my sources, and heeded the warnings, other than Turkish membership, I'd like to know where you'd put falsehood in what I've said
2 years ago #9498081
@NorwaySwedenDenmark
I think I would have enjoyed Wales, Iceland and Switzerland participating as well. (Namely Iceland. "Hey England! Europe said I may beat you up now."?) Poland too. Wasn't it Polish immigrants whom pro-Brexit-voters wanted out of the country?
However, how many panels do you think Humon should draw per edition?
Are you sure Russia in particular is happy with this, though? I see rather USA and China quite happy when their competitor EU splits and becomes weaker. Particularly USA. The Euro as possible worldwide reserve currency competing with the Dollar is the biggest threat to their financial system that can be.
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@NorwaySwedenDenmark
I think I would have enjoyed Wales, Iceland and Switzerland participating as well. (Namely Iceland. "Hey England! Europe said I may beat you up now."?) Poland too. Wasn't it Polish immigrants whom pro-Brexit-voters wanted out of the country?
However, how many panels do you think Humon should draw per edition?
Are you sure Russia in particular is happy with this, though? I see rather USA and China quite happy when their competitor EU splits and becomes weaker. Particularly USA. The Euro as possible worldwide reserve currency competing with the Dollar is the biggest threat to their financial system that can be.
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2 years ago #9498271
@Myrica "Wasn't it Polish immigrants whom pro-Brexit-voters wanted out of the country?"
As I understood it, the Polish were heavily anti-Brexit and wanted them to stay.
Yeah, I'm sure Putin is very happy about this. All you need is google it
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@Myrica "Wasn't it Polish immigrants whom pro-Brexit-voters wanted out of the country?"
As I understood it, the Polish were heavily anti-Brexit and wanted them to stay.
Yeah, I'm sure Putin is very happy about this. All you need is google it
2 years ago #9497302
-We must arrange a new referendum until we get a result I agree with!
-Doesn't that defeat the idea of democracy?
-What?! NO!
-Think it sorta does.
-NO! Democracy is about people thinking the way I tell them to think!
-Uh, that sounds like fascism---
-IT'S NOT!! Don't disagree with me, you fascist!
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-We must arrange a new referendum until we get a result I agree with!
-Doesn't that defeat the idea of democracy?
-What?! NO!
-Think it sorta does.
-NO! Democracy is about people thinking the way I tell them to think!
-Uh, that sounds like fascism---
-IT'S NOT!! Don't disagree with me, you fascist!
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2 years ago #9497342
@DarkMage7280 You must be really happy about Brexit aren't you?
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@DarkMage7280 You must be really happy about Brexit aren't you?
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2 years ago #9497355
@silverbackgorilla7
Do we know each other? I'm not happy or upset, just curious at the moment.
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@silverbackgorilla7
Do we know each other? I'm not happy or upset, just curious at the moment.
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2 years ago #9497388
@DarkMage7280 i don't know you. it just seems based on your comment that you were mocking people who were against brexit and who wanted a new referendum. i was assuming that you were a brexit supporter.
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@DarkMage7280 i don't know you. it just seems based on your comment that you were mocking people who were against brexit and who wanted a new referendum. i was assuming that you were a brexit supporter.
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2 years ago #9497394
@silverbackgorilla7 Well, you're wrong.
I was mocking people who are anti-democracy.
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@silverbackgorilla7 Well, you're wrong.
I was mocking people who are anti-democracy.
2 years ago #9497733
@silverbackgorilla7
You don't seem to understand what Fascism is defined as. Basically it means silencing everyone you don't agree with.
Calling people for fascists because you don't agree with them is being a hypocrite AND a fascist. Not to mention biggoted. Towards "fascists".
So far as I understand from UK law, it is NOT illegal to:
1. Be racist
2. Be a nationalist
3. Be xenophobic
4. Be a fascist
5. State their opinions, even if they don't agree with yours
6. Only one side is salty as fuck
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@silverbackgorilla7
You don't seem to understand what Fascism is defined as. Basically it means silencing everyone you don't agree with.
Calling people for fascists because you don't agree with them is being a hypocrite AND a fascist. Not to mention biggoted. Towards "fascists".
So far as I understand from UK law, it is NOT illegal to:
1. Be racist
2. Be a nationalist
3. Be xenophobic
4. Be a fascist
5. State their opinions, even if they don't agree with yours
6. Only one side is salty as fuck
2 years ago #9497350
@DarkMage7280
“In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”
-Nigel Farage, May 2016
"[Another referendum is] the last thing I want to see. It’s not a game of the best of three.”
-Nigel Farage, June 2016
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@DarkMage7280
“In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”
-Nigel Farage, May 2016
"[Another referendum is] the last thing I want to see. It’s not a game of the best of three.”
-Nigel Farage, June 2016
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2 years ago #9497356
@Iateapenguin
The way I see it, democracy means the will of the majority. I hated having Tarja Halonen for president in my country, and voted against her twice, but most people wanted her as prez, so I lived with it. Begrudgingly.
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@Iateapenguin
The way I see it, democracy means the will of the majority. I hated having Tarja Halonen for president in my country, and voted against her twice, but most people wanted her as prez, so I lived with it. Begrudgingly.
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2 years ago #9497361
@DarkMage7280
Oh, by all means, it is. I'm not debating that.
In fact, I want this country to go down the shitter now. I want Scotland to leave the UK, I want Ireland reunited. I want Little England to be left on its own to suffer.
I can't wait to watch the Leave voters struggle to find someone else to pin the blame on when they still can't get jobs, houses, when they still have to wait weeks for doctors' appointments. I can't wait for them to start whinging because we didn't sacrifice the single market by ending free movement, to grumble when they're stuck for hours in the queue for non-EU passports at the airport. I can't wait for them to realise their pensions have substantially decreased, and that they can't just retire and fuck off to the Costa del Sol any more. I can't wait for them to awkwardly shuffle and tell their foreign coworkers and friends "but it wasn't personal" as they watch them struggle to obtain visas, as they watch them leave the country because they no longer feel welcome. I want them to drink their own fucking tears.
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@DarkMage7280
Oh, by all means, it is. I'm not debating that.
In fact, I want this country to go down the shitter now. I want Scotland to leave the UK, I want Ireland reunited. I want Little England to be left on its own to suffer.
I can't wait to watch the Leave voters struggle to find someone else to pin the blame on when they still can't get jobs, houses, when they still have to wait weeks for doctors' appointments. I can't wait for them to start whinging because we didn't sacrifice the single market by ending free movement, to grumble when they're stuck for hours in the queue for non-EU passports at the airport. I can't wait for them to realise their pensions have substantially decreased, and that they can't just retire and fuck off to the Costa del Sol any more. I can't wait for them to awkwardly shuffle and tell their foreign coworkers and friends "but it wasn't personal" as they watch them struggle to obtain visas, as they watch them leave the country because they no longer feel welcome. I want them to drink their own fucking tears.
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2 years ago #9497365
@Iateapenguin It remains to be seen if things really come down to that.
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@Iateapenguin It remains to be seen if things really come down to that.
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2 years ago #9497374
@DarkMage7280
Well, unlike the Leave voters, I base my predictions on what the experts say.
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@DarkMage7280
Well, unlike the Leave voters, I base my predictions on what the experts say.
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2 years ago #9497378
@Iateapenguin I have no predictions either way. I'm going to just watch and see how things turn out. I've been right and wrong too many times by now (36) to get over-excited.
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@Iateapenguin I have no predictions either way. I'm going to just watch and see how things turn out. I've been right and wrong too many times by now (36) to get over-excited.
1 year ago #9586059
How Badly Can You Ruin YOUR Country?
England: Beat THIS! *Brexits*
USA: Hold my fuckin beer
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How Badly Can You Ruin YOUR Country?
England: Beat THIS! *Brexits*
USA: Hold my fuckin beer
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1 year ago #9589020
@TheyCallMeMo Some of us are scared. We might have had our last election. Trump ignores the checks and balances in our government and could care less about the Constitution.
Pray for us.
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@TheyCallMeMo Some of us are scared. We might have had our last election. Trump ignores the checks and balances in our government and could care less about the Constitution.
Pray for us.
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1 year ago #9592608
@FreyjaRN Honestly, I'm scared too. Trying to make light of a very dire situation does not seem to work for me.
Considering I am 1) Mixed race 2) Latinx 3) Non-Binary 4) Biologically female and 5) only the second generation of my mom's side to be born in America, I'm honestly pretty freaked out
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@FreyjaRN Honestly, I'm scared too. Trying to make light of a very dire situation does not seem to work for me.
Considering I am 1) Mixed race 2) Latinx 3) Non-Binary 4) Biologically female and 5) only the second generation of my mom's side to be born in America, I'm honestly pretty freaked out
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1 year ago #9595283
@TheyCallMeMo CA would be a good place for you, especially anything Los Angeles and north. Much as I loved San Diego, it's a conservative bastion.
CA is going to be in the president's and the GOP's cross hairs. We're used to fighting.
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@TheyCallMeMo CA would be a good place for you, especially anything Los Angeles and north. Much as I loved San Diego, it's a conservative bastion.
CA is going to be in the president's and the GOP's cross hairs. We're used to fighting.
1 year ago #9606759
@TheyCallMeMo oh ho ho ho. That made me laugh so hard! In all honesty though, 2016 was a pretty terrible year in terms of historical events.
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@TheyCallMeMo oh ho ho ho. That made me laugh so hard! In all honesty though, 2016 was a pretty terrible year in terms of historical events.
7 months ago #9686597
@TheyCallMeMo Might I ammend?
"USA: Hold my beer.
*Trumps*" lol
You have no idea how scared I am as an immigrant in the US. Yes, I'm legal, but I know my actions will be carefully scrutinized, twisted and could be used against me.
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@TheyCallMeMo Might I ammend?
"USA: Hold my beer.
*Trumps*" lol
You have no idea how scared I am as an immigrant in the US. Yes, I'm legal, but I know my actions will be carefully scrutinized, twisted and could be used against me.
4 months ago #9717434
@TheyCallMeMo
Singapore aka PAP-Pff, I do worse everyday. First, increase CPF, then steal more.
Singaporean People-SIGH!
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@TheyCallMeMo
Singapore aka PAP-Pff, I do worse everyday. First, increase CPF, then steal more.
Singaporean People-SIGH!
1 year ago #9554529
Sadly, it seems America's reaction to Brexit was "you think that's big? Hold my beer and watch this!"
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Sadly, it seems America's reaction to Brexit was "you think that's big? Hold my beer and watch this!"
2 years ago #9498095
Let get some things straight:
- Everything said in the comic is true (no this is not up for debate)
- a large part of the pro-brexit vote was based on racism, misinformation, and fascist like nationalism
- The EU is not and never was oppressing you, nor is it undemocratic
- 53% of a vote is not a large enough majority to justify a decision like this ESPECIALLY when when Scotland voted "no" universally and many people are coming out stating they did not understand the true meaning of the vote. That is not true Democracy, that is a technically of votes base misinformation and English bias.
- There needs to be a another vote, one where all three kingdoms of the UK being on board with the idea and there is at least a 60% majority pro-Brexit for it to past. The and only then can you claim is the democratic will of British people, in till the you call of democratic are completely hollow.
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Let get some things straight:
- Everything said in the comic is true (no this is not up for debate)
- a large part of the pro-brexit vote was based on racism, misinformation, and fascist like nationalism
- The EU is not and never was oppressing you, nor is it undemocratic
- 53% of a vote is not a large enough majority to justify a decision like this ESPECIALLY when when Scotland voted "no" universally and many people are coming out stating they did not understand the true meaning of the vote. That is not true Democracy, that is a technically of votes base misinformation and English bias.
- There needs to be a another vote, one where all three kingdoms of the UK being on board with the idea and there is at least a 60% majority pro-Brexit for it to past. The and only then can you claim is the democratic will of British people, in till the you call of democratic are completely hollow.
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2 years ago #9498161
@SirAroun well to be honest; -if all of scotland has voted no...then a big chunk of the rest has voted yes
- 53% is sadly the majority...even if it screws up half of the voters...(but if i remember correctly the uk-voting system was allready screwed)
-if you vote, you vote, there is no "i am stupid"-option (sadly)
lets see what the futur brings, maybe everything turns out fine, maybe not, maybe the uk joins amerika as a state =3
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@SirAroun well to be honest; -if all of scotland has voted no...then a big chunk of the rest has voted yes
- 53% is sadly the majority...even if it screws up half of the voters...(but if i remember correctly the uk-voting system was allready screwed)
-if you vote, you vote, there is no "i am stupid"-option (sadly)
lets see what the futur brings, maybe everything turns out fine, maybe not, maybe the uk joins amerika as a state =3
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2 years ago #9498342
@SirAroun Nationalism is fascism nowadays? I like my country, am I a nazi? I recognize that there are differences between countries and cultures and that there should be: we can't all be cast out of the same mold. Am I a nazi?
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@SirAroun Nationalism is fascism nowadays? I like my country, am I a nazi? I recognize that there are differences between countries and cultures and that there should be: we can't all be cast out of the same mold. Am I a nazi?
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2 years ago #9498362
@DarkMage7280 No, you're definitely not. But for Brits and Germans, fascism and nationalism seem to be synonyms.
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@DarkMage7280 No, you're definitely not. But for Brits and Germans, fascism and nationalism seem to be synonyms.
2 years ago #9499521
@DarkMage7280 The little children in Norway on 17th of May swinging their Norwegian flags and singing the Norwegian anthems are supposedly some racist, nationalistic fascists.
I never knew.
I have to report them to the police next year. Can't have all the children of Norway waving the fascist Norwegian flag in the streets, even in front of the King and Queen (what are they thinking, when they see all those Nazis coming towards them...).
The butt hurt is strong among the losers now, and we'll just have to endure their bigoted and anti-democratic slurs for a decade or more, until they get out of puberty.
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@DarkMage7280 The little children in Norway on 17th of May swinging their Norwegian flags and singing the Norwegian anthems are supposedly some racist, nationalistic fascists.
I never knew.
I have to report them to the police next year. Can't have all the children of Norway waving the fascist Norwegian flag in the streets, even in front of the King and Queen (what are they thinking, when they see all those Nazis coming towards them...).
The butt hurt is strong among the losers now, and we'll just have to endure their bigoted and anti-democratic slurs for a decade or more, until they get out of puberty.
2 years ago #9497687
This is a time for celebration. England having the guts to stand up to the fourth Reich is an inspiration to all of us to do the same. Down with the EU
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This is a time for celebration. England having the guts to stand up to the fourth Reich is an inspiration to all of us to do the same. Down with the EU
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2 years ago #9501136
Brexit
Grexit
Sleavenia
Swedone
Beljump
Byeprus
Copenhatin'
Oui out
Quitaly
Abortugal
Outstria
Nullgaria
Nether Again
Noatia
Forsakia
Czech-out
Egresstonia
Helsinkhole
Angaleave Merkel
Donegary
Retireland
Lat-me-out
Ditchuania
Luxembark
Maltalavista
Gomania
Españope
Polskedaddle
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Brexit
Grexit
Sleavenia
Swedone
Beljump
Byeprus
Copenhatin'
Oui out
Quitaly
Abortugal
Outstria
Nullgaria
Nether Again
Noatia
Forsakia
Czech-out
Egresstonia
Helsinkhole
Angaleave Merkel
Donegary
Retireland
Lat-me-out
Ditchuania
Luxembark
Maltalavista
Gomania
Españope
Polskedaddle
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2 years ago #9504901
@GingerSwede That needs to be on a T-Shirt. And made into a computer wallpaper.
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@GingerSwede That needs to be on a T-Shirt. And made into a computer wallpaper.
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39 M
Please do one about how they then lost to Iceland in the EURO 2016