Let Italian men live

See, this is the kind of movement I could get behind because it can be summed up as "Don't hold us to the standards of Toxic Masculinity. I want to be able to live by myself and not be shamed for that." It's, at any rate better than some of the bullshit angry young men say here in America (I say as a young American man), which is often highly sexist, as they feel as if they are "owed" something from women, and because they haven't "received" what they are "owed", women should be punished. The only time when neither group will feel oppressed is when a society embraces fully equal rights. Until then, both sexes will be trapped by society. Women by men's socially constructed power, and men by their reliance on that same power to survive. A movement like what Brother Italy says here is helpful to both sexes, even if it's not readily apparent at first. Because masculine pride and privilege is harmful to both sexes.
...
Dammit, why do groups in Europe make more sense (or at least have better arguments) than our equivalents here in the US?

@Rukduk The grass may seem greener on the other side but we do have those whiny spoiled manchilds here too.

@Rukduk Toxic Masculinity is horribly degrading to guys, especially teens, and It can make guys think that to be a man you have to hide emotions and be in charge of everything. It degraded women, and shames other guys who don't fit the standard. It is horrible for everyone, and should not be a thing.

It's most unfortunate that so many men's rights activists do just campaign for the right to shit on women, when there's real rights to campaign for.
Not just Italian men cooking, but that's a worthy one, too.

'@DarkMage7280' shitposting on "Return of Kings" or MGTOW cringefest isn't exactly campaigning.
I'd like to see a campaign for codified right for male to take half of rich wife's stuff, custody of children and child support payments in divorce.
Shrieking from the usual suspects would be delightful.

@comrade_Comrade ..........That's true.
Yeah. That's totally true. Equality runs both ways.

'@DarkMage7280' sure, we're on the same page here.

@comrade_Comrade Totally.
You know what? Let's steal a car.

'@DarkMage7280' meh, sounds like work... I mean I rebel against stereotype of toxic masculinity by living safely! :)

(if it was a reference to something then I'm not familiar with it)

@comrade_Comrade Sorry, it was an obscure reference to Beverly Hills Cop.

'@DarkMage7280' I've seen it so long ago that I only remember theme music and the fact that it was one of Eddie Murphy's few good movies. Now I'll have to watch it again.

@comrade_Comrade I'm a woman and I'd campaign for the very same things.

"We get that there are many rights worthy of fighting for, but surprisingly many men just want to shit on women."

This attitude is part of the problem. While Norway does have the decency to ask what Italy is talking about, most of the time the conversation just ends there. "You have some good points, but most MRAs are bad people, so I'm going to ignore the good points."

The fact that we can't even outlaw circumcision is proof of how much people are willing to ignore legitimate points when they negatively affect men. While I'm not claiming it's anywhere near as bad as FGM, it is still performing an unnecessary cosmetic surgery on an non-consenting infants genitals, that can reduce sexual pleasure. That's pretty messed up. This should be trivial to get down to the point where everyone who doesn't have religious justification regards it as a practice that should be ended. But we can't. Slicing up penises is heavily normalized. And I think that is in part due to the attitude to always ignore MRAs, because some MRAs are misogynists.

And some MRAs are misogynistic. But some Feminists are misandrist. It's only natural that any group of people that is focused on the needs of one gender is going to include people who hate the other gender. But ignore the sexists, and focus on the reasonable ones. You are still allowed to disagree with reasonable MRAs and Feminists. But don't let the extremists prevent you from hearing them out in the first place. Or you'll keep living in a country where genital mutilation of infants is so normalized, that shockingly few people even recognize it's wrong to do at all.

@Sines The ignoring of the issues caused by circumcision is hardly a result of anti-MRA attitudes because it existed long before MRAs had any sort of prominence. Feminists actually HAVE spoken out against it, and many other things that negatively affect men, such as laws that don't acknowledge the existence of female-on-male rape or the way courts tend to automatically award primary custody of children to the mother. But it's not something that MRAs want to admit as being true because it interferes with their attempts to paint feminists as man-hating.

Also, MRAs are prone to crashing into discussions about FGM to whine about how no one is paying attention to male circumcision.

@ShoggothOnTheRoof

"Feminists actually HAVE spoken out against it, and many other things that negatively affect men"

At the same time they insist on insane things like the patriarchy, a long debunked wage gap, and here is one of the big one, are the ones that caused the implementation and continued use of the Duluth model in regards to domestic violence, a theory that assumes that men are violent and any violence from a woman's part is self defence. which makes it somewhat counter to the reality as pretty much all studies show that women are about as violent as men in the home and that lesbian relationships are the most abusive there is.

On the rape point the "feminist" track record is somewhat all over the place, in Denmark we have a very neutral legal definition that essentially just says forced or coerced sex, in other places however you have had feminists stop legal changes that include female perpetrators (India and Israel) and say in England you have to have a penis to be able to rape. So giving feminism any credit here would be misleading as we are missing consistency in all regards.

Where do you see them campaign for automatic shared custody between the parents ? I'd like to know because again the record in the different countries varies greatly from place to place.

The reason MRA's or those of us regarding ourselves as egalitarians mention male GM is because unlike FGM, MGM is legal. FGM has been illegal in western countries for 20-30 years depending where you are, so is it not time to just make any mutilation illegal. This of course does not mean that the fact that FGM still occurs is horrendous and the news that the law is essentially not being enforced in England is atrocious, (no conviction since 2003 despite 5-6000 victims every year).

@ShoggothOnTheRoof "But it's not something that MRAs want to admit as being true because it interferes with their attempts to paint feminists as man-hating."

This is another case of gross generalisation of a group that the person above is talking about.

@Sines Really tho compared to FGM, male circumcision isn't *that* bad. It sucks for sure and should be done away with. But compared to what some poor women go through.... *shudders*

@txag70 Depends on the FGM we are talking about. In some cultures it is literally nothing more than a nick that draws blood but doesn't remove any tissue (which is considerably better than MGM though still atrocious). The worst FGM is the rarest, but is definitely worse than your average MGM. At its worst though MGM can leave a man without the ability to get an erection without tearing which is physically about as bad as some (though definitely not all) the worst FGM with the modifying factor that in most cultures men can refuse sex from their wife because of this but women can not.

Seems to me we should just leave everyone's genitals alone except in the case of actual medical need, and that MD's should actually be trained to recognize when there is actual need as in cultures when any infant genital mutilation is normalized MD's tend to accept it as a fix for many problems that are more easily (and less incisively) solved.

Also seems counter productive to say MGM isn't as bad when it is used to justify FGM in cultures that don't see a difference. Looking out for everyone continues to help most those who are most at risk.

@txag70 There are many forms of FGM and MGM both. All types of FGM are outlawed in almost all western countries, and very few of the countries outlaw any types of MGM.

@Sines Yeah, part of the anti MRA sentiment largely comes from the fact that the Anti-feminist 'MRA's specifically seek out feminists to pick fights, leading to a very high exposure rate to asshole MRAs, making it difficult to gauge how many have real grievances and how many use their grievances as a bludgeon, and leaving the impression that most are anti-feminist jerks.

@HiddenSanity And we also have the trolls and shitposters who just want to ruin discussions. Gender issues are a favourite target for them as there will always be controverses about this subject. Most grow out of lying like that in their teens but there will always be a few trolls around almost everywhere.

Let's make this simple: No person, regardless of gender, should be made to feel subservient to, inferior to, wholly dependent on, or abused by another person.

'Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean. Because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.' - Buckaroo Banzai

Had an roommate in college from Italy, think of someone trying to do an over-the-top Jersey Shore impression and he was more Italian than that. I had to teach him how to do laundry, vacuum, unclog a toilet (that was fun....), make his bed, go grocery shopping, and use a stove (not how to cook, how to physically use a stove).

@Fakjbf95 Wow wow wow
Stoves can be scary though, or at least the traditional ones that don't have a built-in ignition mechanism. Maybe it's because I never played with fire as a child, but lighting a matchstick and bringing it close enough (but not too close so as to not burn my fingers) to the stove to light it always felt challenging and scary. At times it'd take me like 5-10 matchsticks.

That ended though when I discovered those long lighters where the button is far away from the fire, it suddenly got really simple. And nowadays with most stoves having built-in ignition it's even more of a breeze.

@Zeust This wasn't even a gas stove, it was electric. As in you turn a dial and the heating element just turns on. He kept turning the dial for the oven even though all dials were clearly labeled, then when he later wanted to use the oven he couldn't figure out how to set the timer (you had to hit the button labeled "Timer" and then use the numberpad to input a time).

@Fakjbf95
...

I'm mostly just happy Sister Norway didn't dismiss the guy out of hand, and asked for more information.

In my own experience, sexism againt men centers around treating us as criminals-in-waiting, unwarranted constant suspicion, that we should somehow have to prove that we are not child-molesters on a case-by-case basis, because the default assumption is that we would rape anything we could catch if we thought we would get away with it (and no acknowledgement of how horrifically insulting that is to any decent person) or that we are just generally disposable and easily replaceable in most any context.
No one seems to care what happens to us once a woman has decreed we are unwanted. There are women's shelters all over every city, but no men's shelters and few generic ones, which will often turn away a father with a child, considering splitting them apart the better choice for the child's sake, and that breaking up the family would be preferable to helping them (and again, no one seems to care what happens to the dad, only the child).
As the comedian observed: "If you see a homeless man with a dog, you feel sorry for the dog."

Most sexism against women (in the current age, and in my part of the world at least) seems centered around women being treated as sexually desirable, at times they don't want to be evaluated on their desirability, by persons they don't want to be desired by, or expressed in ways they don't care for.

That's fine; I don't dispute that most of that is, at the least, rude behavior, or could be inappropriate for the time, place, and circumstances.

I just think being treated like you don't deserve to be alive is inherently much worse.

@Hinoron Didn't someone who owned a shelter for abused men kill himself after a smear campaign from feminists.

@Finn123
I hadn't heard that story, but I find it very believable.

@Finn123 Sadly that seems like a thing that could happen.

@Hinoron There are countless homeless shelters that are ONLY for men, since more men are homeless.
This is because more men are entirely dysfunctional alcoholics and it is much, much safer for men to choose homelessness than it is for women. Virtually all long-term homeless people are homeless by choice. Women have to be far more opposed to the other alternatives available to them than men are to risk what happens to them when they are homeless and live with other highly dysfunctional people with high rates of criminality.

There are also many homeless shelters with both men's and women's dorms.

There are no battered men's shelters because women don't have much of a track record for showing up at homeless shelters and beating men to death or shooting them. Men do this. That is why there must be secure women's shelters, whereas a man who is running away from a bad relationship can stay in a homeless shelter without fear. The battered women's shelters tend to have no listed address. They have hidden safe houses. They have high security. They have this because they must. If they do not, women die.

In addition, men in violent relationships are almost never stripped of their financial independence. They have resources and can leave. They are kept only by shame. Women are often forced to quit work. They are sometimes virtually imprisoned in their homes. They often have nothing that they can take with them.

No, there aren't many shelters for men plus children for several reasons. First, the combination is very rare.
The kind of people who become permanently homeless don't become homeless with their kids. They leave them. Men also abandon their families at much higher rates than women. For the men who are temporarily homeless, again, having children that they support is uncommon, but there is the additional problem that other men in homeless shelters (those among the more-or-less permanently homeless) have very high rates of sexual misconduct with children. That is why men must find special family-centered living arrangements where each family unit gets a protected room. Women very, very rarely sexually molest children, and so other women's children are safe from sexual assault in the women's common room of a homeless shelter, even if there is a high proportion of the permanently homeless there.

@MarianneDos
You probably could have condense all of that down to "I put my faith in stereotypes, and don't care what happens to people or children that don't neatly fit into them".

True enough, women very very rarely sexually molest children. They're more likely to physically abuse them, and much more likely to emotionally abuse them. Sexually abusing them isn't unknown either. It's also true to say that MEN very rarely sexually molest children. Sexually molesting children is extremely uncommon. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the human race possesses that deep-seeded, primitive instinct to protect the herd's young at all costs. That instinct can get a little twisted if we are driven by misinformation to go to extraordinary methods to protect from a threat we find most horrible to think of, that also has the most minuscule chance of happening. It leads us to ignore or dismiss the more likely, and less emotional alarming dangers. Children are 161 times more likely to be abused by a close family member than a stranger.

@Hinoron In my country 50% of children have been sexually abused. That doesn't sound extremely uncommon to me.

@poodle_doodle
Honestly that sounds to me more like a poorly conducted, and unverified study, or an entirely fictitious number pulled from the air to make a good headline. No shortage of those in recent decades, unfortunately.

Meanwhile here in America we just want to go to college without getting kicked out for 3 years on rape accusations from women we've never met that never even get sent to the police let alone investigated.

@Theomniadept You see the problem is that you are going outside and having your name be known by other people. Man has spent over a hundred thousand years perfecting inside so that you don't have to go outside to be eaten mosquitoes and other people.

Dads could use more baby changing tables in the bathrooms. My husbands tired of pretending to be transsexual just so he can change a leaky diaper.

There are some real men's rights issues. In the US, men can only vote if they sign up for the draft, and if they don't sign up for the draft, they can go to jail. Women are not required to sign up for the draft, but they still get to vote. Fathers win custody of their children only about 5% of the time and they have to spend a lot of money on court cases to get visitation rights. Also, men commit suicide at about 4 times the rates of women, but when there are men's suicide conferences, people protest them and call the people involved misogynists, like at the Toronto conference a few years ago.

@vxc2006 Men commit suicide at 4x the rate because they choose more violent methods. Women attempt it twice as often.

Men made the draft laws and misogyny about women being too weak and men being too sad when women get hurt is what keeps that from being changed.

Men set up the family court system and the sexism that women are automatically caretakers but men can't be is also not something women came up with.

Basically the shit you want changed is something you have to get men on board with but since most of them think it's just cuz women are gold digging bitches it doesn't happen.

'@katansi' "Men commit suicide at 4x the rate because they choose more violent methods. Women attempt it twice as often."
I'd like to see source, because right off the bat I know that preferred methods vary from country to country. Also I wonder if your source separates self harm designed to draw attention (like cutting wrists and calling for help right away) from actual suicide attempts.
Someone who failed to die via hanging or poisoning with pesticides/CO/CO2 shows remarkable lack of commitment.

"Men made the draft laws and misogyny about women being too weak and men being too sad when women get hurt is what keeps that from being changed."
Wrong, and Israel is prime example. Worse upper body strength and increased traumatism are some of the reasons why IDF (which has every incentive to conscript anything that breathes in infantry or tank crews) still limits women to administrative, police and support roles. Combat aviation and some positions in navy are exceptions, mainly because they have very different set of demands. Those roles appeared relatively recently and make up only a small percentage of any armed force...
However, this argument surfaces only when combat roles are being discussed. US military has plenty of jobs that do not involve combat.

Somehow, eight years of administration's fight for "gender equality" in military only resulted in lowered training standards and abolition of navy ratings.

I have yet to see a feminist campaigns demanding equal treatment of men and women in divorce cases. Weird, I thought feminism is about gender equality.

@comrade_Comrade It's so cute that you think that. Do even a cursory google search about suicide statistics and you will find that info. Most suicide attempts also fail so I'm gathering you're not all that familiar with methods. The most successful method is shotgun to the head and it goes down precipitously from there.

Nowhere did I say women don't have different bodies, I said men made the laws on the draft and have failed to change them which is true. On average women have lower strength but considering only the most basic positions in the military require strength to perform the job that's a pretty dumb criteria to go by. And on top of that a woman can train to reach more than just the basic male requirements for fitness. So, what really happened is 8 years of stupidity resulted in lowered training standards rather than 8 years of improving training regimens for women. And considering the number of women in executive positions in the military it's STILL not a result of women making the rules.

And, again, women are still not responsible for the family court system. We don't hold enough judicial and legislative positions to be even remotely responsible and the fact a woman can sue for divorce AT ALL is progress. Seriously if you want progress then it's on men at the moment until at least a 50/50 balance is achieved. Discussing country by country is fine but all you get is that more gender inequality means worse for men and women in all facets of life except maybe when you want to rape women legally because you now own them.

Do your own damn research.

'@katansi' "Do even a cursory google search about suicide statistics and you will find that info."
Show your source then.

"The most successful method is shotgun to the head and it goes down precipitously from there."
It's a big surprise then that people manage to off themselves in countries that limit firearm ownership. Plus, if gas is less effective than a shotgun, then it's strange then that your local building code has rules about carbon monoxide detectors.
Meanwhile, I know from experience (second-hand, by sheer luck) that threat of suicide or half-hearted attempt of one can be used as a sort of emotional blackmail. Sure, males do that too, but I'm not convinced that they do it at the same rate.

"misogyny about women being too weak"
"Nowhere did I say women don't have different bodies"

"I said men made the laws on the draft and have failed to change them which is true"
And it's very surprising that feminists which, supposedly, fight for equal rights don't seem to put much emphasis on draft. That was the point.

"On average women have lower strength but considering only the most basic positions in the military require strength to perform the job that's a pretty dumb criteria to go by."
"most basic positions" is an interesting word to use. What would that include?

"And on top of that a woman can train to reach more than just the basic male requirements for fitness."
So far not true for USMC.

"So, what really happened is 8 years of stupidity resulted in lowered training standards rather than 8 years of improving training regimens for women. "
Yep. And that was done by administration of Obama, "the most feminist president".
I'm glad that we're on the same page here.

"And considering the number of women in executive positions in the military it's STILL not a result of women making the rules."
Because when you push for representation instead of performance you get someone like Holly Graf.
That's beside the point, though.
Oh, and by the way - male Generals already asked Congress to make women eligible for draft. Doesn't look like any relevant legislation appeared even at committee level.

"And, again, women are still not responsible for the family court system"
Strange, because I keep hearing that men need feminism too. I mean I see a lot of campaigning in favor of greater representation of women in STEM or against wage gap, but none for equality in divorce.

" Seriously if you want progress then it's on men at the moment until at least a 50/50 balance is achieved."
Would that mean that 50% of children should be born by men too?

"Discussing country by country is fine but all you get is that more gender inequality means worse for men and women in all facets of life except maybe when you want to rape women legally because you now own them. "
Well, if you want to make blanket statements like that, maybe you'd want to think of how single parenthood or lowering birthrate to sub-replacement level is good. That would be an interesting case to make.

"Do your own damn research. "
Wouldn't that be toxic masculinity and mansplaining?

@comrade_Comrade Nope, you're so knowledgable about suicide you can dig that crap up on your own.

"And it's very surprising that feminists which, supposedly, fight for equal rights don't seem to put much emphasis on draft. That was the point."

So you think that the fight for the draft should outrank say fighting for the right to vote in some countries, or the right to choose what gets done with your body, or the right to not get sold into marriage against your will. Yeah having priorities is SOOOO horrible I can't believe we have them at all! All issues are equal! Cuz getting women in the draft is actually an issue feminists discuss but being able to get a job or a vote or medical procedures or not get sold is a lot more important.

"Would that mean that 50% of children should be born by men too?"

That was brilliant troll work. I forgot that after a child comes out of a vagina it's totally not a thing men can even participate in 50/50. Totally the same thing. Just totally.

"Well, if you want to make blanket statements like that, maybe you'd want to think of how single parenthood or lowering birthrate to sub-replacement level is good. That would be an interesting case to make."

What? How does marital rape being legal have anything to do with a lowered birthrate? Are you high?

"Wouldn't that be toxic masculinity and mansplaining?"
Literally no. Because researching would be reading and not talking. Good try though.

'@katansi' "Nope, you're so knowledgable about suicide you can dig that crap up on your own."
And it's easy to see why. Looking no further than wikipedia:
"Researchers have attributed the difference between attempted and completed suicides among the sexes to males using more lethal means to end their lives.[6][10][11]

But wait, there's more!
"However, separating intentional suicide attempts, from non-suicidal self-harm, is not currently done in the United States, when gathering statistics at the national level"

Thought so.
Meanwhile males in Russian prisons, pretrial detention or military manage to successfully kill themselves despite having no access to firearms or, in former two cases, blades. A girl I had distant acquaintance with was serious about it and took the noose, succeeded at first attempt. A male friend of mine tried drowning, failed, tried roof, was stopped by rarest of luck and is in therapy ever since. Girls who shown off multiple scars across their wrists a decade ago still update their blogs.
I have a plan since I was 23, and bottle of inert gas is non-violent as it gets, should work like a treat if things ever get as bad as then. Intent matters.

"So you think that the fight for the draft should outrank say fighting for the right to vote in some countries"
Women in US already have the right to vote, as long as those listed after it. Still, when it comes to draft in US it's *crickets*.

"That was brilliant troll work."
No, it's search for consistency.

"I forgot that after a child comes out of a vagina it's totally not a thing men can even participate in 50/50"
So when 90/10 male/female team writes an operating system, women already have no trouble participating in it's use in at 50/50 ratio. But yeah, somehow there is a push for tokenism even in open source software development.

"What? How does marital rape being legal have anything to do with a lowered birthrate? Are you high?"
"Discussing country by country is fine but all you get is that more gender inequality means worse for men and women in all facets of life"
Greater access to education, high-paying jobs and general focus on careers for women correlate with decrease in birth rate. I thought it was basic knowledge, and you specifically used words "gender inequality" and "all facets".

"Because researching would be reading and not talking"
"you're so knowledgable about suicide you can dig that crap up on your own"
Those two quotes work really well together.

@comrade_Comrade You compared having a child to making software. That is so absurd there aren't even words in English for it.

Lower birth rate is not actually a bad thing. Forcing women to have unwanted children is actually a bad thing.

'@katansi' "You compared having a child to making software. That is so absurd there aren't even words in English for it."
Why, software development is one of the areas where there is strong and consistent push to achieve equal representation despite the fact that in open source contributions can easily be anonymous and are judged more or less on their merit. Now you concede that since male can't give birth, he should settle at having an equal part in raising the child. If females on average can't write code well enough to achieve equal representation, why should there be push to have more female developers? After all, anyone can use software and provide feedback, even if it's proprietary closed source.

"Lower birth rate is not actually a bad thing. Forcing women to have unwanted children is actually a bad thing. "
Birth rate below replacement level is potentially catastrophic. With the way that social security or pension systems work in most Western countries, it will become prohibitively expensive even if without abrupt population collapse. No one so far mentioned forcing women to have unwanted children. You claimed that gender equality is beneficial in every facet of life, I've pointed at negative outcome of policies promoting gender equality in higher education and workforce.

@comrade_Comrade

Uh, women actually *are* fighting for the right to participate in combat. The draft situation in the US is shitty for men, but the point you're not getting is that it stems from the misogynist assumption that women are incapable of combat. Which it looks like you believe. You can't complain about how the way the US armed forces is structured is bad for men, and then say that the reasoning behind is is totally correct.

You don't actually know the definition of mansplaining, do you?

The rest of your statements are so incoherent I can't even figure out why you're bringing them up.

'@Kestrad' "Uh, women actually *are* fighting for the right to participate in combat."
"You can't complain about how the way the US armed forces is structured is bad for men, and then say that the reasoning behind is is totally correct."
If you read what I've wrote with any kind of attention, you'd see that I've mentioned Israel. IDF has next to no women in combat jobs. Infantry and tank crews are completely male if I didn't miss something.
Meanwhile, both males and females are subject to conscription in Israel, and women make up 33% of IDF. That's an example of how conscription can have more or less equal rules for both sexes without sacrificing military efficiency.

"misogynist assumption that women are incapable of combat"
Even a double amputee is capable of some kind of combat, in US military can select for quality. It's just that USMC had to introduce different standards of physical fitness (meaning relaxed requirements for "non-load bearing" occupations) to accommodate female volunteers, and women seemed to have difficulties with Ranger School.

"You don't actually know the definition of mansplaining, do you?"
Humor me.

"The rest of your statements are so incoherent I can't even figure out why you're bringing them up. "
Reading the whole exchange for context might help.

@vxc2006 Can you back up the statement that, "Fathers win custody of their children only about 5% of the time"? Because I've read that when father seek custody, then tend to get custody at a pretty reasonable rate, and that the discrepancy between men and women getting custody is explained a lot (not all, perhaps, but a lot) by the fact that men don't SEEK custody. That isn't to say that there isn't anything sexist in the fact that our society insists that women should be the ones to have custody to the extent that many men don't seek custody, but the court can't award them custody if they don't seek it. That being said, I'm having trouble finding good sources about this information, which I admit surprises me.

It would be so much easier to take men's rights activists seriously if they talked about actual issues , like Italy in this comic, rather than just trying to maintain privilege