Can you imagine the clipshow?

The Europeans are much better at letting history be forgiven than Americans (well, unless they're royal, then that's debatable, but eh).

But in this case, it's useful to remember that Americans have a *much* worse experience with slavery than Europe. This is for one express reason... American slavery was a bastard child of European slavery and African slavery in all the worst possible ways, and was way worse.

Here's the run-down...

European (British-style) slavery: This was debt slavery. Basically, to pay off your debts, you became a slave to someone who paid off your debts until your debts were paid. Then you were free again. If you didn't pay off your debts, your kids were also slaves. This continued until the debt was fully repaid (usually, at worse, only slightly through the child's childhood).

European (Nordic-style) slavery: Basically, spoils of war. *Usually* it was Serfs who were kidnapped (sitting targets, not let in the walls when the cities were attacked, no weapons to defend themselves, etc.) Being a Nordic slave meant you were now part of a Nordic hold. Sure, you put in with the animals, but that was only until you proved yourself useful, and not much stopped you from building your own home on the hold. Heck, play your cards right and it was hypothetically possible to move up to having your own hold someday. (Not that I know of any who did off the top of my head, but it was at least -hypothetically- possible). In a lot of ways, being a Nordic slave was better than being a British serf. And your kids definitely weren't slaves, but full-fledged members of the hold (if you didn't learn to make yourself useful, someone else would raise your kids, because you weren't considered capable of raising them).

African slavery:
Prisoners of war. They came from all walks of life: Kings, merchants, wise men, and even slaves turned slaves again. Once your village/city/whatever was captured, all those of the defeated land were now slaves. On the positive side, it was the parents that lost the war, not the kids. Kids born to slaves were free. There is no way out of it if you're a slave though.

American-slavery: Take the worst part of British slavery (it can be passed to your kids, inherited from the British), and the worst part of African slavery (once you're in, there's no way out, came from sells of African slave merchants to American slave merchants who told them it was perpetual), and stick 'em together. It's perpetual, with no end ever in sight, not even for your kids. It is 100% hopeless. The Irish slaves that came over had an expiration date. The African slaves that came over didn't; so the African slaves were in very high demand, which drove up enslaving wars in Africa to fuel the high demand for them in the U.S. Even when the U.S. finally quit importing slaves, the African ones they did have were perpetual. To bolster political defense of this, slave owners pushed for lots of pseudo-science 'explanations' of how Africans were somehow innately inferior, this kept them down (and to a degree is something the U.S. is still struggling to overcome). And to prevent slave uprisings in the more hopeless scenario, instead of the European style where slaves were encouraged to make themselves useful and valuable, American slaves were forbidden to even learn how to read (to help prevent them from organizing). This completely decimated any social structure after the end of slavery for the freed slaves to help build themselves back up. Further, 'freed' slaves were basically brought right back into British-style slavery under the psuedo-name of "sharecropping". (Although it wasn't American-style slavery anymore, it was almost British-style slavery, just not called that so it could be legal). This kept up for quite a time too, indebting one generation after the next. On top of it, there was lots of legislature in place to keep Blacks from voting, so the cards would stay stacked against them. And then, in later generations (up to current day), lighter forms of these practices continue. Lots of practices exist in southern states that make it much easier for blacks to get thrown into prison and have their voting rights stripped away. Further, black neighborhoods are generally taxed for schools more than white neighborhoods, but white neighborhoods receive more of the taxes to fund schools.

This is why it's still an issue in the U.S. It was a much worse form of slavery, and the repercussions of it are still being felt to this day and still trying to be cleared up.

@joshupetersen There was another form of slavery in baltics and I think in Finland as well, known as serfdom.

Basically, the slave was tied to the land. The german nobles owned the lands and the people on it. The slaves were allowed to build themselves a home on the land and farm the land but they had to give (a quite large) part of their crops to the noble. In addition to farming their own lands, the slaves also had to farm the fields that belonged to the noble and noble's fields took priority, meaning they could only work their own fields when the work on noble's field was done. And the slaves had to feed themselves from their own crops. The lord could have been kind enough to provide food in bad times but it was not necessary.

Now it might seem the slave was pretty free, right? Wrong. The slave was not allowed to leave the lands of the lord, ever. If you left, you were hunted down, brought back and punished severely. It was not possible to buy your freedom. Any children that were born into your family automatically became slaves as well. Hell, you couldn't even live well. Say, you built yourself a fine house where you could live comfortably, well, pray the lord doesn't take fancy to it and kick you out so he can claim it for himself. There were no laws in place to protect the slaves.

This kind of slavery lasted from 12th century up until 19th century. While the rule changed hands many a time, from germans, to danish, to swedish, to russians, the one thing that never changed was serfdom and german nobles. Depending on the ruler, the nobles had more or fewer rights regarding the slaves but the slavery remained for about 700 years. In that time, culture, religion and history of the enslaved people was completely erased without trace. All we know is the accounts of the invaders and what little archaeological digs have discovered.

@Star-ling Serfdom was pretty common across Europe until the Black Death, although to be fair, in most cases there wasn't such a distinct ethnic difference between the serfs and the nobility. To give an overly simplified explanation, the plague essentially broke serfdom in most of Europe because it killed enough of the lower classes that those who remained were suddenly valuable enough to demand at least some rights (mostly because the nobles were all desperate to get more people back on their lands, so the nobles' agreement that had previously existed to extradite runaway serfs collapsed in favour of competing to attract more workers).

Because of this, however, it was probably going on for a lot less time in the rest of Europe than in the Baltics.

@joshupetersen
You forgot about one more system. When males were castrated and females sold into harmes. Every year, for decades. Tatars were raiding my country and kidnapping people for slavery. Those who were deemed unfit for being sold were killed in place. Women were sold as sex slaves, males were often castrated, sold to galleys or mines were they died etc. Occassionaly some slaves could get into stellar careers, but they were still slaves and most of them got the worst possible life.

https://listverse.com/2018/06/06/10-little-known-facts-from-the-crimean-slave-trade/

@joshupetersen Nahh.. You are partly right, but children of Thralls were not free. A Thrall could buy his freedom, which would make him a "freed man", but not a "free man", however the kids of a "freed" were "free". Children of thralls stayed thralls though.

@joshupetersen Currently studying this exact topic in my Social Justice 170 class in college and can confirm the US system is epicly broken. The War On Drugs that started in the 1980s was specifically designed to target poor blacks by giving harsher punishments to people possessing crack cocaine (typically possessed by blacks) versus powder cocaine (typically possessed and distributed by whites) to the point that so many blacks were incarcerated for "worse" offenses in jails to the point where when they were finally released from prison, they were so negatively labeled a felon that they couldn't (and can't) get jobs so that they'd wind up selling drugs again to make ends meet.

And when slaves were freed initially, in order to keep slavery legal, whites would arrest blacks for minor offenses and tell them they would stop being incarcerated once they paid their dues to society for their (innately minor) societal offenses. The blacks would work and work but would never be able to keep up with the dues they were charged with and would remain indentured because the debts they were assigned couldn't realistically be repaid. For more information, read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander. She goes into the intricacies of how African Americans have subtly been repressed since the passing of the 5th and 15th Amendments.

Well, I think there's a bit more here than just different approaches to history or "not being able to take a joke.". African Americans, as you must remember, still face a lot of discrimination and the effects of institutional oppression. They're not their own little prosperous kingdom now with no real reason to still be pissed. Our slavery era was also relatively recent, it ended in a war that killed more Americans than any other, it was followed by several more years of Jim Crow, and we still have people today (even on this site) making endless excuses for why the side fighting to keep slavery in that war "wasn't so bad."

i.e., We don't see slavery as a joke or something to simply move past here because we're still mopping up after it.

@star3catcher
With all due respect, I think the African American people should, as a collective, make a checklist of requests.
I think it'd make it a lot easier to tend to their needs.

@Zenon Then there'd be massive fighting over whether or not to go through with those demands, we'd probably end up doing none of them

@squidtm
Might just be optimism, but surely there'd be at least one thing that's managable, in which case, it's better than nothing, right? Little steps

@Zenon
Sadly, that is indeed optimism. Most white Americans have no idea of our innate biases. That’s why the police get called so many times on fellow citizens who are guilty only of existing and going about their daily affairs - while black. And when the police get involved, the chances for a bad outcome, ranging from inconvenience to death, multiplies.

@Amberglas I'm gonna say something that REALLY isn't talked about much. The "Black Card" is racist, and is used in bad ways. When someone is told they can't be hired/promoted because they are the wrong skin color - its a white person. When someone is fired from a job because of "racist language"... its always a black customers complaing about a white person. (Nevermind if the coworkers and boss can testify to their innocence - still fired!) As for the myth that cops are racist in Amerrica? Cops arrest Blacks LESS often then any other group EVEN THO more then 50% of violent crimes and homicides are committed by that tiny group that is less then 13% of the population. Cops just don't wanna deal with the "racism" charge so... they let stuff slide when the person is Black.

@star3catcher What modern African Americans take as a racial prejudice exists in most other countries too - only there it's called "class difference" or "wealth gap". In the UK there are entire neighbourhoods of people who face as much prejudice and hardship as any poor neighbourhoods in the US. It's just no one cares what their skin colour is. Same in France, same in Germany, same in even Russia or China. USA isn't special on the "disadvantage" issue. Only on the racial focus of it.

@LeeNTien Indeed. Howevere there were various policies in the past that helped segregate based on skin color during the developmental phases of those neighborhoods. That's why many of the poor neighborhoods are primarily one color, because of various incentive programs meant to raise people up that had fine print to primarily benefit white americans. Amusingly if the division had happened naturally it'd be far less of a race issue because the neighborhoods wouldn't of been so segregated by race without said policies and a more melting pot situation would of arose even if chances are there would be a fair amount larger economically weak areas.

While the problems as they are today exist everywhere, the causes of it being heavily biased on race date back over half a century. That said, there's also plenty of white trash neighborhoods too-though even then those neighborhoods are primarily low income white people not a mixture of races due to the designs that helped segregate housing arrangements in the past with incentives and bonuses tweaked to be targetted. It's not like the US had any real issues with that-our immigration qoutas were changed like ten times on the essential justification that not enough "Propper" immigrants were coming in which basically meant white northern european protestants at the time, so they kept tweaking the dates the qoutas were based on to be ever more heavily in favor of them as opposed to say italians or spanish immigrants. So the US has a fairly long history of paper divisions in their legislation :P

@star3catcher I don't know about "several". Based on the novel To Kill a Mockingbird, it was still going strong in the 1930s, and according to Wikipedia, until 1965. So it's more like a century, sadly.

It's because Americans have been brainwashed into believing their part in slavery was the worst thing men have ever inflicted upon other men. As horrible as any involvement with slavery is, America's was but a drop in an ocean. The African and middle Eastern slave trades were orders of magnitude larger, and still alive to this day. Just the number of European people alone taken into slavery overshadows the American slave trade. Where is the outrage for them?
Both Americans and the British would do well to remember that it was them that put an end to it.
We're all, as nations, guilty of horrible things. We must learn from them and be better. Holding an entire nation emotionally hostage for something it abhors and, indeed, it has eradicated, is amoral and horrible.

@Cris The rhetoric is controversial, but there's more than a nugget of truth here.
People, we can't cherry pick historical facts that we find comfortable.
The American system of enslavement was horrible, absolutely YES, but far more slaves were taken to the Middle-East, from both Africa, and Europe. Their treatment was... horrifying to the extreme.

Mother Teresa was a fine, outstanding human being, but she also supported the incredibly oppressive caste system.
We have to accept history as it was: anything else is a lie, and a delusion.

@Cris Yes, it is amazing with all the talks about how Europe and America should apologize for slavery (to people who're all long dead), while The Middle East, who still has slaves (and has had it longer than Europe) don't need to apologize (and free) their slaves of today.

But we can always hope, that the world will be better. It _has_ become better in some ways, but no enough, I guess...

@eLVeeJay

It's amazing how conservative apologists for American slavery keep claiming that people who criticize American slavery think that the Middle East doesn't need to apologize for and free their slaves of today, when in fact NOBODY takes that position.

If you find it so hard to respond to the actual positions of others that you feel the need to make up positions to put in their mouths, you should reconsider your views.

@Cris

"Both Americans and the British would do well to remember that it was them that put an end to it."

Britain and parts of the US willingly - while other parts of the US went so far as to rise up in treasonous rebellion against their elected democratic government and start a civil war in the pursuit of keeping people in slavery.

That's the problem here - parts of the US has never fully accepted that slavery was wrong to begin with and are still crying crocodile tears over their failed rebellion to keep slavery going.

The first part in the process of any wrong is ALWAYS to admit guilt and accept responsibility for your actions - and parts of the US still refuses to do that.
Which is what leaves the wound open and raw.

If parts of Germany had behaved in the same way after WWII they would rightly still have been under Allied occupation and never allowed to unite again.

The union army simply should have stayed on longer in the south after the civil war and stamped out racism, but they left to soon and let the infection remerge in the form of Jim Crow laws instead of open slavery.

@Nisse_Hult
"That's the problem here - parts of the US has never fully accepted that slavery was wrong to begin with."

This statement is largely incorrect. If there are any parts like this in the US, they are minuscule in size.

"and are still crying crocodile tears over their failed rebellion to keep slavery going."

Also incorrect. A small number of people may be still grieving for lost ancestors who participated in the bloodiest war in US history, but they aren't crying because of a "failed rebellion to keep slavery going."

@NaCltyGrl

Your biased opinions are showing.

Everything I wrote there is just a matter of historical fact.

The southern rebellion was failed - and it was explicitly stated by the rebels themselves at the time that the reason for the rebellion was to preserve slavery.
See for instance the so called "Cornerstone speech" for clear proof of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Now you might not like those historical facts and prefer things to have been otherwise - many a American do - but that still won't change the historical facts.

Regarding the current situation I'll just borrow a quote from Jsconn90 who succinctly described it as such, above:

"Moreover there's a sizable chunk of the population that wishes for and actively pursues a return to such times... white supremacist and pro-Confederate rhetoric is disturbingly common in local and state level politics; Republicans bend over backwards to gerrymander minority populations into irrelevance and close more polling stations in minority population centers every year; Trump is heartily endorsed by the KKK."

Again - you may not like to be confronted with these facts - but facts they are nonetheless.

@Nisse_Hult

There probably is no disputing that immediately after the war, a large amount of people wished for a return to such times.

You are commenting about what people believe today. I wonder where you are getting your "facts" from other than fellow internet posters.

You don't live in the US, and your really have no clue, sorry.

Furthermore, our FBI has this small number of individuals on their watchlist.

@NaCltyGrl

"You don't live in the US, and your really have no clue, sorry."

As often is the case, it seems not living in the US actually gives me a better chance of having a clue.
There is an awful lot of wishful thinking and mythology concerning American history and society amongst Americans - as anyone decently educated outside of the US knows.

You like to view yourself and your society (and history) in a certain way (biggest, best, "freeest", most wonderful country in the history of the world etc) - which means unpleasant truths often don't stand a chance.

"There probably is no disputing that immediately after the war, a large amount of people wished for a return to such times."

Certainly - but besides the point, as I've made no mention of anyone wanting to "return to such times".

What I wrote is that "parts of the US has never fully accepted that slavery was wrong to begin with and are still crying crocodile tears over their failed rebellion to keep slavery going"

So you're arguing against something I never actually said - which is known as a straw man argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Regarding my claim about people "crying crocodile tears over their failed rebellion to keep slavery going", look no further then the "Lost Cause" mythology - which is still alive and strong in the US south:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

"Furthermore, our FBI has this small number of individuals on their watchlist. "

Some of them, sure - but your president and the Republican party is actively producing new recruits every day with their words and actions.

@Nisse_Hult

Yawn...

@NaCltyGrl

I bow before your argumentative excellence

@Nisse_Hult
Sorry, you don't seem to understand, allow me to clarify: I don't care what you do.

@NaCltyGrl

Neither do I care what you do - but I'll still point out when people spread falsehoods.
You're free to express your opinions and support them as best you can - but you also have to accept that people point out when you're wrong.

That's how freedom of speech works, you know.

@Nisse_Hult

Apparently you have to have the last word as well, however incorrect you may be.

@NaCltyGrl

And now you're just projecting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Since it's of course the other way around completely.

You've tried to have the last word repeatedly - with snarky little nonsense remarks - while you of course have proven nothing of what you claimed.

While I have proven my claims with links and pointed out your use of a straw man argument to instead attack claims I never made in the first place.

In other words - you've failed at every level and you're now only trying to extricate yourself with your ego intact by reversing our roles in this debate.

Pretending you did splendidly while at the same time attributing your own behaviour to me.

As a defence mechanism it might work in your own mind - but I doubt it will impress any objective reader of our exchange.

@Nisse_Hult

What.
Ever.

@Nisse_Hult

Fyi, I'm not trying to prove anything. I don't feel compelled to prove that I'm right, (unlike you - hence, yawn).

and fyi, I will post, because as you say, it is freedom of speech (which you claimed to value).

Or maybe you just want freedom of speech for yourself and not others who don't agree with you? Don't really care, either way.

@NaCltyGrl I live in the US.

You're absolutely wrong in the water, there. XD

I live near some of the cities that've seen a spike in hate crimes since such opinions have been curated, again--for the purpose of votes. Think single-issue voter. Think Charleston.

Think about the person who came up to me at the grocery store, and butted into a conversation with my family, about how "the brown people" were filthy, didn't deserve to live in this country, took up too many resources, were violent, and should be booted out--and not be given shelter after natural disasters, because reasons above.

I looked right at him and said, "That's unAmerican, sir." ...and got my family out of there.

He was one of two that same year. They've been emboldened, and statistics back it up. Go look up phrases such as "recent rise in hate crimes," look up violence against black churches, and please don't forget Charleston ever happened.

These folks aren't a majority--they're just being given a voice and feeling of empowerment, when they shouldn't be.

@ruggs

No, I don't agree. The people I know in Charleston and other places in the South absolutely do NOT wish for OR actively pursue a return to those times.

There may be nutters who do think this way everywhere (in the US and around the world).

They are thankfully, thankfully in the minority MUCH more than in the majority.

And yes Virginia, we do have a good FBI to stop these folks as well. :-)

@NaCltyGrl

Once again you're pushing the same false straw man - now on ruggs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

He/she never claimed anyone "wish for OR actively pursue a return to those times" (as in a return to slavery) - but STILL - despite the fact that I pointed this out before - you continue arguing against a claim NO NONE has made!

This is obviously because it's a more comfortable position for you then to argue against what I and ruggs are actually saying - that there are a whole lot of racists in the southern US.

Now they may or may not want a return to slavery - that's besides the point entirely (and again, and I can't stress this enough apparently - nothing either of us have claimed to be the case).

Ruggs and I - and many with us - still agree it's bad enough that they are racist.

Which leaves you with exactly two options here - agree or disagree.

You choose neither, because you where obviously uncomfortable with neither, and instead invented a third option by pretending that ruggs and I claimed something completely different and then attack that fantasy instead.

I think most people can see how hollow this argument is so please just stop wasting time pushing it.

If you're OK with racists, just say so.
By now we all expect you are anyway, since you seem so uncomfortable with accepting the reality that there are an awful lot of racists in the southern US.

@Nisse_Hult

Actually am just too bored by your posts to read all the way through, sorry!

@Cris As an actual American...no. The widespread enslavement of Africans in the USA has had very far reaching consequences for our country's history, from a civil war, to a long civil rights movement, to the hangovers of the past era (income inequality, racial profiling in policing, etc) that we're still struggling to deal with, and to dismiss it as "just something in the past" is ignorant of hundreds of years of context.

We may not have been the worst offenders, but it is a fairly recent and traumatic event for us, and is traumatic on a personal level for many African Americans in their family history, and in the aforementioned consequences today.

The Brits and Scandinavians have had the time to shake it off. We haven't.

@Cris All slavery is bad, but not equal. In some places slaves had actual legal protections and it wasn't racially based.

I think that the two things that are the cause of this situation (or two of them, at least) are:
-In Europe, culture has mostly moved on: current Norse people are not vikings, current Germans are (mostly) not Nazis and so on, so it's easy to separate past grudges from current people; in the US, however, since when they fix things they either go back or they do't really fix the thing, the wounds of slavery have carried on to today, even if step by step they are being (very) slowly mended.
-Peple in the US are often under the impression that things outside have been exactly like how they've been there.

The other issue is that America didn't really end slavery, it just redefined it via redlining and Jim Crow laws. While on paper blacks had equal rights, the reality is that Blacks were systematically kept as a second class for 150 years, and in many places are still dealing with laws and expectations to keep them in an inferior role. If you discovered Norway was still keeping foreigners in subservient roles, it might not be so funny. Heck, a lot of the English intolerance towards eastern European workers is the exact same thing. They want them to work, but they want them to be inferior to justify making them work. It's not that the English are pining for housekeeping jobs. It's that they're pining to think less of the people they employ, so they can pay them less and treat them worse.

@Somber
You are cheapening slavery.
There are actually a very large difference between slavery and being treated as a second class citizen.

@ICynic
In the US, there's not as much difference as you think. When you look at the US prison population and see the racial inequality there (black people are incarcerated at far higher rates than white people) and then consider that virtually all prisoners in the US are subject to actual present-day legal slavery, it's pretty horrific.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States

@Somber

So are you an ignorant idiot or just another worthless liar! Apart from the point another poster making about you cheapening slavery by comparing it with other forms of discrimination I'm getting bloody fed up of people excusing their hate rants about the UK by pretending its some sort of semi-fascist state. Look at your own pigsty 1st given how much hatred and bigotry its spewing out. [I am talking about the EU here not Denmark].

For your information, not that your phobia about facts will allow you to accept it, we have so many eastern Europeans here because of a more open and tolerant system. Both economically and when those countries were 1st admitted to the EU Britain was the only major power that didn't take up the option of restricting immigration from them. True I don't think Blair expected so many to come - projections were about an order of magnitude less - but that's why Britain has so many people from eastern Europe here and many have settled into the country and hopefully will be here for the foreseeable future, despite the EU.

@stevep59
1) So are you an ignorant idiot or just another worthless liar!
I suppose both are possible for either of us.

2) Apart from the point another poster making about you cheapening slavery by comparing it with other forms of discrimination
Opression isn't a spectrum. Slavery is many horrible things, but it isn't hypocritical. To say that all people are free, to put it in the constitution that they are equal, and then to make them as slaves, to exploit them even more completely than when they were slaves, is far worse. You could escape slavery because it was there. You can't escape rules and laws that subtly work to oppress you in a hundred different ways.

3) I'm getting bloody fed up of people excusing their hate rants about the UK by pretending its some sort of semi-fascist state.
The that to Magdalina Howlett. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-nottinghamshire-48203199/polish-mother-says-brexit-abuse-forced-her-from-uk

4) Look at your own pigsty 1st given how much hatred and bigotry its spewing out.
I am very, VERY aware of the failings of my country but as of yet murder is still wrong.

5) For your information, not that your phobia about facts will allow you to accept it, we have so many eastern Europeans here because of a more open and tolerant system.
The system can not tolerate, only people can, and of late much of England has been woefully intolerant. However, my point still stands. You don't want to do immigrant jobs, you want someone that's dehumanized so you can spit on them.

6) Both economically and when those countries were 1st admitted to the EU Britain was the only major power that didn't take up the option of restricting immigration from them.
Then your actions today not only disgrace you today, but also your actions of fifteen years ago.

7) True I don't think Blair expected so many to come - projections were about an order of magnitude less - but that's why Britain has so many people from eastern Europe here and many have settled into the country and hopefully will be here for the foreseeable future, despite the EU.
What you did and what you are doing are two separate things. That you were better people than you are now is a tragedy, and one I know full well. When you see exploitation for what it is, you have two choices. Deny it, or deal with it. You're choosing the former. Choose the later. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go remind myself that murder is wrong as I watch my country slide further and further into madness.

Good day.

@Somber

So a bigot to the end. The difference between me and you is that I criticise people who are/do wrong and you seek to demonise entire populations. Its a pity so many people are lazy and prefer hating than actually understanding what the actual facts are. Be happy in your sewer of hatred and bigotry. Just understand why civilised people view you with contempt.

@stevep59 You know, I could be a bigot, but some day I could change my mind and be a better person. You're a jackass, and jackasses never change.

@Somber

You mean because I decide not to accept an arrogant liar as a deity and humbly tolerate him being a rude idiot who thinks screaming abuse at people does anything but show exactly how much of a bigot they are.

Keep lying to yourself to pretend your behaviour is excusable and intelligent when its neither. You are a troll and you wish to be nothing else.

@stevep59 I'm a troll. You're an asshole. Yadda yadda yadda. Done with you.

@Somber

You mean because your an empty headed little bigot. Not sure if its brains or morals you lack but go stew in your moronic hatred.

Old saying, at least in Britain. If you live in a glasshouse don't throw stones.

@stevep59 Once again. We're done.

The situation in the States is a little different. There are folks here only a few generations removed from slavery and Jim Crow is within living memory. Moreover there's a sizable chunk of the population that wishes for and actively pursues a return to such times... white supremacist and pro-Confederate rhetoric is disturbingly common in local and state level politics; Republicans bend over backwards to gerrymander minority populations into irrelevance and close more polling stations in minority population centers every year; Trump is heartily endorsed by the KKK. And those are some of the least controversial issues.

@Jsconn90 The "sizable chunk" is vastly overstated with populations across the country numbering at best in the tens of thousands, in a country of almost 350 million. The KKK was formed from the democrat party, and no, they didn't "flip". The Republican party was LITERALLY formed to help abolish slavery. Hillary Clinton was not only also endorsed by the KKK, but had an elected KKK member of the democrat party - Robert Byrd - as one of her closest mentors.

@Kailen

"The KKK was formed from the democrat party, and no, they didn't "flip". The Republican party was LITERALLY formed to help abolish slavery."

And since then the major US parties have completely traded places on the issue of race.
The Democrats broke with their racist southern supporters during the 1960's when LBJ enacted a wide range of civil right legislation.
These supporters where then without a major party and the south instead voted for racist third party candidate George Wallace for president.
Until Nixon and then Reagan enacted the "Southern strategy" in which they used racist dog whistle politics to scoop up the racist southern vote for the Republicans - and the south have been solidly Republican ever since.

This is a matter of historic fact utterly beyond debate and you're either lying or ill-informed if you don't simply admit it.

It's kind of sad that I - living on the other side of the Atlantic - know more about your country's modern political history then you apparently do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

@Kailen

Don't engage, to be frank, it is not worth the time spent.

@Jsconn90

Sizeable chunk? Sorry, don't agree.

And I would imagine that the people who are in favor of a return to such times are on the FBI's watchlist for these and other, related reasons as well.

It is also worth bearing in mind that many of the "people" generating extreme viewpoints (from which some individuals get their "facts") may not even be real.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/russia-troll-2020-election-interference-twitter-916482/?fbclid=IwAR1T-4PLCUzRCxcn-GZh9WI5E6TPM9estx7_JZ_Z1KKdBIEz2zSASEF3N2o

@NaCltyGrl All due respect, a chunk doesn't have to be half the population to be sizable or extremely concerning; even a cursory examination of the statistics highlights that there are over 1000 active hate groups in the US and most are growing by the month. Convictions for hate crimes, notoriously underreported and difficult to prosecute as in a lot of cases it basically takes a confession, still hit 8000+ a year and that number has been steadily rising.
Anecdotally now, having worked in a midwestern police department there's an excellent reason US cops are stereotyped as racist; cops that *aren't* chillingly racist are a minority in the ranks.

@Jsconn90 I didn't say that it wasn't concerning - but I do say that it's not a significant number, and that the FBI (thankfully) has their sights on the individuals who REALLY wish for and "actively pursues a return to such times."

And I do agree with Kailen (perhaps on this one point alone) that a "sizable chunk" is vastly overstated with populations across the country numbering at best in the tens of thousands, in a country of almost 350 million. This isn't to say that whatever size, it wouldn't be concerning however.

My name is Inigo Montoya.
Your great great great great great great grandfather killed my great great great great great great grandfather . Prepare to-
Y'know what, this is silly - let's get a drink instead.

@MarauderDeuce
Amen, mate

There's still slavery in England, but in the form of Muslim Child-Grooming Gangs.
England sweeps it under the rug and even defends them online against those who call attention to it because it's apparently fine to be a nonse, but god help you if you're islamophobic.

@Zenon

"England sweeps it under the rug and even defends them online"

Utter nonsense of course.
As all criminals they are prosecuted in accordance with the law and no one anywhere makes excuses for child molesters.
Except in the US - if the accused is a Republican politician of course - (See Roy Moore of Alabama for context).

Your post on the other hand reeks of the islamophobia you pretend doesn't exist - including the not so subtle choice of using Hitler as your avatar.

@Nisse_Hult
I'm not being islamophobic at all.
Muslim or not, a child molester is a child molester.

Give this a read
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/10/uk-500-men-raped-victim-of-muslim-rape-gang-from-age-of-11-authorities-did-nothing-fearing-islamophobia-charges

Btw, I use this avatar simply because I like the depiction of Nazi Germany in SATW. Evil, but nicely dressed.

Besides, I'd make a pretty crappy nazi :P

@Zenon

No thank you - I don't read "anti-Muslim conspiracy" sites since I don't enjoy being indoctrinated with propaganda.

But it's obvious why you're misinformed, when you do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_Watch

@Nisse_Hult
I wasn't aware of the site's reputation, I was just googling and it came up as a result, my bad.

@Zenon

Don't apologise to rape apologist mysoginists like Nisse. Jihad Watch is telling the truth on this issue. The SPLC lost all credibility on anything to do with Islam when it fatwa'd Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajif Nawaz.

@Nisse_Hult

You lie. The coverup of the muslim rape gangs in England is well documented. Here's one authoritative link to get you started, I could spend all day finding others:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

The rape gang in Rotherham was so large that the National Crime Agency is still investigating years after the local authorities were finally shamed into doing something and they've had to launch Operation Stevewood and recruit additional officers to try to uncover it all:
https://nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/child-sexual-abuse-and-exploitation/operation-stovewood-rotherham-child-sexual-abuse-investigation

There's been so much coverage of this that I do not believe for a second that you honestly believe that it wasn't covered up.

The muslim rape gangs got away with their crimes for so long precisely because rape apologist scum like you scream 'Islamophobia" every time someone points out hard truths about Islam's treatment of women. Such as, for example, believing that girls are available for sex (rape) from the age of 9. So much for 'not making excuses for child molesters'. These gangs were (and probably still are) all over England and have been found in other European countries. I've no doubt they exist in your country. And you will be there making excuses for them.

You are a vile mysoginist.

@photondancer

No, I don't - but please do try to prove your claim by citing the specific quote in which you claim I have lied, and then prove that with a reputable source.

Neither do I in fact believe that you are knowingly lying - you're probably too wrapped up in your own hatred to be able to see the illogic of your own argument.

First of - Zenon's post that I replied to claimed that "England sweeps it under the rug ".
This is disproved by the simple fact we know about it, and the links you posted.
England is certainly not trying to sweep this under the rug.

If Zenon had moderated his statement to "England DID sweep this under the rug", the statement would still have been false - because obviously not ALL of England participated in an elaborate cover-up.

But in the mental space fundamentalists like you live in, it seem entirely plausible of course, that (almost) ALL of England engaged in a massive cover-up - because only you and fellow fundamentalists like you accept the "truth" that Islam is evil.
And everyone else - who doesn't share your "truth" - are part of this cover-up.

In the real world however - as you first link expressly states - this was a case of failure in leadership in one local council in England, and the local police.
There is no evidence or reason to believe that this was in any way known or dealt with at a higher or wider level.

So what you have here are individual people failing in their responsibilities - which does not a nation-covering cover-up make. In the real world, that is - but of course details like facts and proof are unimportant to fundamentalists like you.
You already "know" the truth, of course.

Further more, Zenon talked about "Muslim Child-Grooming Gangs", which is wrong in two ways.

Firstly there was one gang - so no "gangs". But again - you already know they are everywhere of course - you've already said so.

And secondly, and more importantly - they're not "Muslim".
The people who committed the crimes in this instance happened to be Muslim - but that doesn't mean their religion is the defining part of this group or individuals in it, or that their religion had anything to do with it, frankly.

Again - you obviously "know" it did and anyone who disagrees with you is part of the massive cover-up. I know.

But I've yet to see you or any other islamophobic fundamentalist talk about Christianity's responsibility for the fact that catholic priests systematically molested children for decades (probably more like centuries in reality) all over the world, and that this was fully know by the church and that they where protected by the church and ultimately the Vatican.

If a group of child molesters who are Muslim in one English town are proof that Islam as a religion condones or even encourages child molestation - like people like you claim - then surely decades or centuries of systematic child molestation perpetrated by priests in the catholic church and know by the Vatican, must prove that Christianity is evil?

I'd say there is a much stronger argument to be made for that, since the pope in catholic teaching is God's chosen representative on earth and all.

But yet - not a peep out of people like you about that.

Which of course is because people like you don't actually give a crap about children being molested or women being mistreated - UNLESS it's Muslim perpetrators who happened to have done it.

Then and only then are you interested - because that again "proves" in your minds the "truth" that Islam as a religion is evil and all Muslims therefore are either evil, or at least uttely suspect.

While you don't go around claiming the same thing about all Christians - despite the fact that their priests have been raping children with the Vaticans knowledge and blessing for god knows how long.

So, your islamophobia is very easy to spot.

Not sure you can include England in that given current developments, not when the electoral cycle is all about England wanting to celebrate and glory in xenophobia and how WW2 means it should get to treat the rest of Europe and its home colonies like dirt.

@CrypticMirror

I'm not sure the behaviour of the hard line remainers counts as xenophobia, although some show a clear dislike bordering on hatred of the idea of an independent Britain.;) There are moronic idiots on the leave side as well but scum like them are always about and their presence is being massively exaggerated to excuse all the abuse of Britain for its people wanting to be self-governing. Its the old tactic that's been used for millennia to demonise an opponent by seeking to attribute extreme views to them. I don't think it will prevent Britain leaving the EU and is probably making it more likely but is also probably making it more likely the UK will see the EU as a hostile body. Which is a pity as if the will had been there we could have had a friendly divorce but Brussels and its supporters insisted on playing silly buggers the turning the insults and abuse up to about 13. The Donald has gone but I doubt his replacement will be any more adult and responsible. Its a sample of the bias and BS that you pretend having equality is treating people like dirt.

@stevep59 Even English moderates, hell even English progressives, are hella racist. It might not be the flashy form of direct hate-racism, but even the innate and equally harmful "banter" racism is deeply embedded in English culture. Not just towards foreigners and former colonized overseas nations, but also towards people from their home colonies of England and Wales too. It is really vile, and the knee jerked way it is denied by English people is quite disturbing. The one good thing about Brexit is that the aftermath might just be enough to finally break the English people to the point they are forced to confront that racism.

@CrypticMirror

As you say you know nothing and are happy to be that way. Just another hate filled troll who can't even see the contradictions in their own BS rants.

@stevep59 Uh huh, whatever dude. You're record on trolling speaks for itself. You just are too incested on seeing England as both a victim and a magnanimous overlord at the same time so don't speak to me about possible contradictions.

@stevep59 P.S, You are exactly the kind of racist that is creating the problem. It has been the high handed manner of your demands that has created the Brexit problems, and the insistence that the EU put you first instead of the people who will Remain EU citizens which are its responsibility. While you were part of the EU, you got the same level of zealous representation and defense that you are now complaining about the remaining nations getting. You created the difficult divorce, not any other nation.

And the UK already had national sovereignty, you fool. You just mistook not getting your own way all the time as being oppressed.

@CrypticMirror

Its lying little bigots like you that are the cause of so many problems. You know f**k all about me as you show with your stupid insults. Also your factually inaccurate if you think the EU gives a damn about their citizens inside the UK as that's shown as false by their stupid and reckless behaviour.

@stevep59 The EU has been remarkably consistent in trying to protect its member's rights, and the rights of individual citizens. It has been the English government in Westminster that has and is continually using them as a political football. Stop trying to pretend not getting your way all the time is a form of oppression.

@CrypticMirror

Someday you may grow up and realising that blind hatred and bigotry, while easy is as destructive for you as for those you abuse. Until then good riddens.

The problem is that the Deep South still hasn't accepted that it lost the Civil War and that formerly enslaved people now have the same rights as them. Hence things like the "Lost Cause" or "Heritage not hate" or "War of Northern Aggression" (those muppets ragequit the country and then fired the first shots!), or "State's Rights" (haha ok). All the revisionist history they invented to try to play themselves as the noble victim, and it continues today. The South needs to let go and move on.

@Sorflakne
Oh yes.
"Gone with the Wind", "Birth of a Nation". Huge propaganda films/books. Famous and beloved. Complete white supremacist propaganda.

Nearly all the history books for that post-civil-war time frame were all written by white supremacists too. It's a lot easier to get half (or all... see Lincoln's famous "some of the people" bit) of a country to believe your revisionist history if there's no competing history to refute it.

You (who sound like you are from the Northern states?) probably didn't know that in the 10 years following the end of the civil war, 16 African-Americans served in Congress. (How many are there right now, I wonder?) It wasn't so much a slow, difficult progression of civil rights; it was immediate freedom and great progress for about 10 years... followed by massive backsliding. Black people were suddenly free and... the country didn't fall into chaos; in fact the newly freed blacks were doing fantastically. That's a big part of what those Deep South revisionists of yours want to stay buried.