Break the bars

Omg, Russia is date-raping from behind. Chloroform doesn't work with people that have so high tolerance for vodka. :XD:

And I have to point out, that Sweden is not under American protection, but under Finland's protection. Finland has never had American protection, and our army has never been defeated. It would continue fighting from the woods even in the event of occupation. And our army has by far the biggest artillery in EU and military reserve of a million men. Occupying Finland would be really expensive and would gain just about nothing but trouble.

@real-cool-cat This is Brother Trump America, though. He knows less about Sweden than previous Brother America- probably just that it's probably somewhere in Europe, but with an outside chance of Southeast Asia.

@ShoggothOnTheRoof Well, still not explaining how militarist-nutjob Finland got taken by surprise that easily.

@real-cool-cat However to be fair, as you said the chloroform probably didn't work on Finland so a nasty knife and broken bottle fight is taking place out of screen as we speak.

It will probably continue for a few months until Finland is forced to Give Russia a large enough sliver of land for them to burry their dead on.

'@Svenskefan' Fine, but we are keeping the chloroform rag. *Snifffff... Ahh!* That hit the spot. :D

@real-cool-cat Gimme that rag! Sheesh, I'm sorry, you guys. real-cool-cat's making us seem like crazy addicts or something...

"May I have that rag back, please?"

...........In a minute!

'@DarkMage7280' It is for medicinal use, I have a chronic condition. Doctor said it's a condition called being sober. And it totally sucks.

@Svenskefan
Finland was probably bored to sleep with all the speeches and that's how Russia could sneak up to him. They can still make up over vodka. Or else have a knife fight if they so choose.

@real-cool-cat
Aren't you still missing some territory that was stolen from you back in WWII?

'@SeanR' We did lose 10% of our area as a term that our politicians negotiated. But our army was nowhere near defeated, 4 years of war against soviets and only 63 000 killed/missing in action.

Right after that peace treaty we went to Lapland war, 75 000 of our soldiers against 214 000 Nazis. That's like more Nazis than it took to invade Denmark and Norway combined. And we won, yet again. With ease. After Red Army that was a picnic.

@real-cool-cat Yep, that is the Finland we know and love. ;)

@real-cool-cat

Finland DID lose the Winter War, and ended up ceding more territory than Russia had initially demanded. It just cost the Russians far, far more than they had anticipated, for land that wasn't particularly valuable and industry that had been destroyed.

'@CorruptUser' I think we are getting the semantics wrong here. Result of Winter war was not Russian victory, but interim peace.

Army was not defeated by any means. For example, USA failed miserably in Vietnam war. But was US army defeated? No, it won every battle.

@real-cool-cat
Did the US have to cede territory to Vietnam in order for that peace to occur?

Russia won the war in a Pyhrric Victory, much like how the Persians defeated the 300 Spartans.

@CorruptUser Russia's goal was to occupy and annex the whole of Finland. If they'd won, fair and square, why would they have settled on for some territory when they could've taken the whole country? It wasn't a Russian victory.

@CorruptUser Finland did better than Baltics. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were under Soviet rule, then for 1-2 years under nazis, then for about 50 years again part of Soviet union. If keep that in mind, Finland remained independent which is far better than USSR.

@real-cool-cat finnish army never defeated? what about the Red Guard. they were defeated. and finland did techincally lose both the winter war and the continuation war(while still being independent). if I remember correctly Finland is neutral so Sweden cant really be under its protection. FInlands artillery isnt that big comparing to Russia. yes occupying Finland would be really expensive and wouldnt gain anything, but I dont think Finland would be the only case of that. probably every country today would be an absolute pain to occupy.

'@Cyborg'_Viking Red Guard fought against Finnish army. And Finland did not lose neither of wars, result of neither wars wasn't "Russian victory" but peace treaty. You can lose territory without army being defeated. You can lose territory even without a war. That is not the same as defeated army. Stalin thought he can invade Finland in 5 days. Instead he fought five long years without success. People can of course debate all they want, debate so much that black turns to white and trying to understand that debate is like trying to understand the smell of color 9.

Technically, we won. By we I mean the whole North. Because technically Sweden is under Finland's protection, since Russia needs to go through us first. NATO or anyone else will never offer that much protection than Finland does. Some weapon supply and sympathy cards, but that's it.

While speaking technically, we technically won, Sweden is technically under Finland's protection and Sweden technically don't have army, since it has no Russia-proof defense without Finland. Actually, no other Nordics do, so... you're welcome.

@real-cool-cat Technically Finland is not really protecting the north because technically the Russians could make use of their fleet to technically go across the baltic sea and mess us up, they could also technically make use of their nuclear bombs to bomb the living shit out of our collective asses.
So the only thing that Finland is technically protecting the Scandinavian countries from are ground assault, which is but one branch of a rather large military force that would annihilate any of our countries if not for alliances made with other nations... technically.
So... Thanks for nothing.

PS: The soviet wanted only parts of Finland, the finns refused, Soviet invaded, took heavy damage, Finland ended up ceding more land than the soviet previously bargained for. Now explain, why would Finland give up more than they bargained for, if they thought they had a chance to win the war.

WW2 also ended with a peace treaty, is your claim then that the axis powers did not lose the war?

'@azaer' Finland is much more protection in every scale from manpower to weapon material to the North than NATO will ever be. Unless of course you surrender before the war even starts, I think that's just about what your own army is good for against Russia.

@azaer First of all, Russian Baltic Fleet only has 55 vessels, while a lot it's not enough to overpower the coastal defenses of any Nordic nation, so an amphibious invasion is not realistic, most likely the fleet would be used in attempt to blockade Nordic countries.

Nuclear war is just an idiotic argument since use of a nuclear bomb anywhere in Europe would 100% lead to NATO intervention and nukes on Russian soil.

With those two in mind Finland does act as a buffer that protects rest of the Nordic countries from possible Russian military action. In any war scenario Finland has to be dealt with before Sweden, Norway or Denmark are under any real threat of invasion.

I'm quite sick of hearing the "mimimi Finns lost more territory to the Soviets because they were too stupid to give up their land right away" argument. Mostly because it shows a clear lack of historical knowledge. The territory that Russians demanded on the Karelian Isthmus was the land where all Finnish military fortifications were, also at the time Viipuri was the second biggest Finnish city. There was no way any nation would have accepted those demands right away. Especially since British, French AND Swedes were sending positive signals they would aid Finland in the war.

Also giving up the territory that Soviets demanded would have most likely still led to a Soviet invasion (this time without any fortifications for them to fight through) considering this was the tactic Hitler had used to annex Czechoslovakia just over a year earlier, and considering the way Winter War began with Soviets faking a Finnish bombardment.

Finland did end up losing the Winter War, however Finnish army had not been defeated, but it had lost it's key defensive lines. That made defense of the country unfeasible in the long run, so the government sued for peace. What makes this different from the Japanese and German defeats in WW2 is that Finnish government never surrendered unconditionally like Germany and Japan. Finnish government always made peace before total defeat. In that way it can be claimed that while Finland has lost wars, its army has never been completely defeated.

P.S Sorry for long post, but this subject is close to my heart.

@Nubsva Explain to me then, how the cold war was a big deal, if the use of nuclear weapons is "an idiotic argument"? Yes it is mutually assured destruction, but is humanity really known to be the brightest bunch?
Now i can't seem to find the original post, i guess it may have been down-voted or something, but i believe i also mentioned aerial attacks? Did you neglect that or just forget that i mentioned it? Because fighter planes are a pretty big deal when it comes to attacks on other nations.

We seem to be in a disagreement as to how we define a "defeat". Can we agree that a defeat is the opposite of victory? if yes:
The soviet wanted to invade Finland because Finland rightly refused to give up territory to the Soviet Union, they invaded and even though they met extremely tough resistance, they eventually broke through and the finns brokered for peace because the fight was lost without further help from other nations. So was the Finnish army victorious? I would personally say no, unless i remember wrong, the only other option apart from victory is defeat, so was the Finnish army defeated in the winter war? yes?
Your original claim was, as i believe, that the finnish army had never been defeated, that is what i respond to and what i originally responded to, not whether they were only "halfway defeated" or "slightly defeated".

@real-cool-cat I think you and me are living on two very different planets. or you might be a bit of a troll that I am fueling for no reason. but if not I will suggest that get yourself some more info about the world outside finland

'@Cyborg'_Viking I don't know what info you mean I should get, but I am well versed of the capabilities of Nordic armies and Russian army. I know every single weapon system of even Norway and how they operate. This is something I study almost daily.

But if you are "fueling" as you say because of my words, it's better that I let you live in whatever conception you ever may have about Nordic military capabilities. I have no interests to troll or start heated debates, just stating my point of view based on crude facts. Sorry if I aggravated you, but denial and aggression is the most predictable psychological cover-up for feelings of guilt and shame, and what I said may have made you subconsciously ashamed your country's lack of military strength and it's parade of failures. But stating facts is never trolling in my book.

In scenario, where Finland is occupied and not protecting the North and Russia is able to use Finnish soil to attack, Norway's situation is hopeless. They would sexual intercourse you up beyond belief and beyond repair. Russian submarine fleet is very capable of blocking the help that NATO could deliver through sea. I'm sorry, but I just don't see that North could hold it's own in case Russians come through Finland.

@real-cool-cat the reason I am disagreeing with you is that I have encountered a lot of people that always claim that their country's army is the best in the world. you did also mention a gory war movie. this made me very interested but I couldn't even find it on google. Sure if you are backed up by facts then okay, I guess you are right. But why do you think Russia would even want Finland or the entire north for that matter. It would be just as you said. a waste of resources. Russia doesnt need any more angry minorities.

I do also have another question. If Finland is indeed protecting the North, what is their plan to save Norway from a Russian naval invasion from the north and west?

'@Cyborg'_Viking http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048752/

Well, Russia would probably want the whole world if it could. Has tried to do so. Has tried to annex Finland. Multiple times. One time succeeded, when Swedes sacrificed us to them. Why they would want Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania? Don't know, but it took them anyway. And many others. And still has parts of our land, even though you would think that last thing Russia wants is more land.

Finland is protecting the North because of it's geopolitical location. They basically have to go through us first. You don't propose that Norway's army is so weak that it could be taken over by a handful of soldiers coming from the submarines?

You are not the one who should be irritated. Just be glad that we are the ones who have to deal with a major military threat, second strongest army in the world right after USA in our neighbor, and it's hostile even today (not long ago simulated a nuclear strike, constant violations with armed jet fighters and submarines..). And you instead have next to you oil reserves, not even on your land, but still your property due to international laws. And since there is no military alliance whatsoever in the North, and our military expenditures are in no way subsidized by any other Nordic country, I think it's only fair to say that Finland is protecting North.

The more I read about Murica the more I doubt that it is a first world country

@Tressa it's not. If you go to the deep South from somewhere like Seattle or Boston (both of which suffer from HORRIBLE homeless problems) it feels like you stepped into rural Bolivia or something. The roads are terrible, living conditions are terrible, there's a meth lab every acre and no one has any money. There are SO many poor people who will never have an opportunity to not be poor that it's impossible to call America a first world country, at least in my opinion. I DID grow up there.

@GracieTheGlaceon Ahem, as some some one who has been to the South I have to contest this. The South is an extremely nice region, the people are generally nice, they can be a bit pushy on certain matters but are well meaning. Certain counties can be extremely bad, but I can say the same for Canada as well.

That said, infrastructure is starting to fall behind. The government really needs to take care of that.

@GracieTheGlaceon As another person from the South, I have had no experience with that whatsoever. Where in the South are you talking about?

As for not being a 1st world country, there are plenty of other countries that are considered 1st world that are worse off than the USA. Trust me, we're a first world country.

@GracieTheGlaceon
As much as I want to agree, remember this is just the perspective given to us by news outlets and media in general. Which is very rarely the whole truth, add that the 'normal' american's are highly unlike their politicians and news, just like any country ever.

That said America is most definitely unique, considered the 'biggest' power in the world, generally, yet as this example with prisons point out, its lack of proper support of their citizens, social system e.t.c. its health system and whatnot, I really do wonder some times, personally and this isn't meant to insult anyone, "The american dream" seems to be one big propaganda against their own citizens, which in some ways can make America seem like some of the third world dictatorships out there. Then there's trickledown economy, which has been disproven insanely so, yet you still have american's voting against their own interest.
With Trump at president, and the surprising amount of low income workers that voted for him, they basically voted themselves out of health care...
So yeah, does the media fairly represent the people of america? heck no.
Is America when you look at what goes on in, a country at odds with itself?

@xondk Well said. Most of us don't believe in the American dream now, seeing as how that dream can be accomplished in a lot of places now.

'@xondk' " its lack of proper support of their citizens, social system e.t.c."
"Mandatory spending makes up nearly two-thirds of the total federal budget. Social Security alone comprises more than a third of mandatory spending and around 23 percent of the total federal budget. Medicare makes up an additional 23 percent of mandatory spending and 15 percent of the total federal budget."

"its health system and whatnot,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_need

FDR's commie legacy is still alive, and even after Reagan's attempts of deregulation US is still a socialist country. The only thing that prevents USSR-like stagnation is the fact that socialist politicians didn't regulate private industry into oblivion. Yet.

""The american dream" seems to be one big propaganda against their own citizens"
Of course, there is no reward for dedication and talent in US. Sergey Brin and Elon Musk should have stayed in their countries, and as president Obama pointed out, didn't build their businesses.

" Then there's trickledown economy, which has been disproven insanely so"
Oh, you mean the strawman that left created to argue against? Or are you're trying to say that corporations are insensitive to lowering taxes? Then you should tell that to Apple and government of Ireland.

"With Trump at president, and the surprising amount of low income workers"
Low skilled workers fearing competition from unskilled illegal immigrants, outsourcing (partly due to increasing cost of compliance to federal regulation) or flood of cheaper imported goods putting them out of work? Surprising indeed, as much as coal miners in West Virginia being upset about hearing promise to put them out of work.

"that voted for him, they basically voted themselves out of health care..."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-24/obamacare-benchmark-premiums-to-rise-25-in-sharpest-jump-yet
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/08/16/490207169/aetna-joins-other-major-insurers-in-pulling-back-from-obamacare
But I'm sure that switch to single payer system would solve inherent problems of ACA. After all, Department of Veteran Affairs already shown how that works. There's just a small problem of people dying in off-the-books waiting lines.
In the mean time, this nice young man will explain how real socialist democracy works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G790p0LcgbI

"Is America when you look at what goes on in, a country at odds with itself? "
A country at odds with major cities.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/red-state-blue-city-how-the-urban-rural-divide-is-splitting-america/265686/

@comrade_Comrade
A bit late in reply, since for some reason I didn't get a notice. And can't find my original post since its been a while now.
in terms of trickledown more in the "we help the top which will lift the bottom up"
And yes that said I agree with you and you have good points, it is far from a simple situation

@GracieTheGlaceon I couldn't agree more. I think people who have only lived there just don't see it, because they don't have anything to compare it to. But I've lived in a few places including there, and it is just shocking. The near-necessity of owning a firearm in some places just to be safe, the potholes in roads everywhere, the old cars and poverty everywhere... it just isn't like that in other truly first-world places. I'm in Australia now and I saw my first pot hole in three years a couple of weeks ago. I just went by that road again and it is already fixed. Just one example, and a rather trivial one all things considered, but it's just an example of a more civilised society that runs smoothly and everyone is taken care of. Oh sure, you have rich and poor just like anywhere else, but the overall quality of life across the board is better. I don't ever plan to go back to the US if I can help it.

@Tressa As a Murican, yeah, it's debatable.

@Tressa Oh, we're a First World Country on the basis of our economic, military and cultural power...

But, yes, internally, we do have quite diverse approaches to social welfare issues. And when you have extremists on both sides pushing their particular vision of how to handle those issues...

@Dena One side (center-left) wants welfare to exist, the other side (far right) wants it to not. There's really no "vision" to speak of on either side.

@skx0221 There is a vision there, you just have to look at the results of having welfare ... or not.

@Tressa - Look at it this way Tressa, America is very much a first world country with the best of everything for the top five to ten percent and a third world country for everyone below the 50% line. Remote Area Medicine (RAM) https://ramusa.org/ was founded specifically because it's founder, Stan Brock, noted that for many Americans in many rural or depressed areas, getting any, let alone adequate, medical care would have been easier if they had been literally, 'on the moon.'

Think of this (and it is far worse in, say, the Appalachians) there is a sizable town in northeastern California (world's seventh richest economy) there is no hospital, no doctors and only a couple of volunteer EMTs. According to an ex-resident, the closest medical facility is the clinic at a local religious cult's ranch 20 minutes from town, no doctors, just couple of folks trained in basic first aid. If you're injured, in cardiac arrest or other real medical emergency, the closest real trauma care facility is two plus hours by car in Reno to the south or Redding to the west or a very expensive 30-minute medivac (airborne medical evacuation) helicopter ride. Everyone who can afford it carries medivac insurance which gives you one ride in the helo per year. It's not like your wonderful system in Germany where if you get into an accident on the Autobahn, a mobile surgical helo drops onto the freeway with a surgical team inside and can start operating as you are flown to a hospital.

Funny thing is, of course, that your medical emergency response system was based around an enhanced version of America's experience with the airborne medivac protocols that were developed during the Korean war and further refined during Vietnam to get wounded soldiers from the front lines onto a surgery table in less than an hour (the 'golden hour' of emergency medicine) of being wounded. Your people just applied it with vigor to taking care of your general population.

Like most of the things 'lacking' here in 'the 'States,' it is rarely if ever a matter of technology or know-how or relevant skills, we have those, but a LACK OF WILL to apply what we know for whatever lame excuse someone dreams up.

@TangoXrayActual this is horrible

@Tressa

Yes Ma'am, it surely is.

@Tressa

America is made up of 50 "countries" (and numerous "territories" and "districts"). The conditions vary throughout the whole US. Admittedly less variation than the EU, it's more like the difference between Netherlands and France than between Norway and Bosnia, but there is still variation. Connecticut is basically equivalent to the Nordics in terms of overall health and so forth, but places like Alabama might as well be Italy in terms of health and crime.

'@CorruptUser' We all know that eastern Europe have social and cultural problems and southern Europe often has financial problems, but Bosnia is not in the EU, neither is Norway. Inside EU, social democratic values are clearly everywhere, we don't have death penalty in any country, US has in some states and other states not. That's a cultural difference of at least 100 years. And Nordics are extremely similar. If you look a tourist guide video "10 things to know when travelling Sweden", you'll see that all those things likely apply also in Finland. if we look at the american social democratic party and take the most left 5th part of it, it is still more right-wing than our right-wing parties.

@Tressa The term of world countries comes from the cold war and are determined by their allegiance during the cold war.

Pro-Western States like USA, France, West Germany, Japan, and UK were first world
Pro-Soviet States like USSR, North Korea, Cuba, and East Germany (Warsaw pact states and PROC are included) were second world
and everyone who wasn't either like India, Indonesia, Switzerland, and Iran were third world
Which is rather funny as Sweden and Switzerland were technically third world nations.

Isn't tax evasion the one crime in the nordics that gets you a 10+ year sentence? But rape? Nah, 21 days of community service for you! Sweden yes.

@Finn123 This is a sad misapprehension of how the system works.

It's quite easy getting worked up over single cases the press has worked into something they are not. Or are just that, a single case, not representative of how the law is carried out.
If you are actually interested in finding out if your bias is true, I would highly recommend reading criminal court cases from any of the Nordic countries.
They are available as public record, some with the names stricken.
In far the most cases, there are valid reasons as to why the sentenses were as they were.

With respect,
A former law student.

@GrinningGhost
Sad missapprehension... hah, ironic.

No shit sherlock, I'm aware that 3 weeks of community server is far from the standard punishment for the offence. I used it to comedically mock Sweden, duh. And in any case rapists up in the north get away lenient sentences too often, call them "single cases" if you want, it's still enough to ridicule the system.

Former? Did you flunk out?

PS: Media rarely bothers to get worked up over these cases.

America is, sadly, a country addicted to bloody and biblical, old-testament style vengeance, not 'corrections' or rehabilitating anyone so they can return as a useful member of society. Never has been nor, unless there are deep psychological changes in the national mindset, especially of the allegedly bucolic rural areas where it is preached from altar, pulpit and civic podium, will there ever be. If it weren't for the Constitution, Vlad Țepeș could probably have been the most popular judge sitting the bench or warden in many states. Nothing is more appreciated in many places than a maximum penalty prosecutor, a 'hanging judge' or a warden from hell.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/02/upshot/new-geography-of-prisons.html?_r=0

And once you're in the system, the 'System' is never willing to let go, even if you are an innocent caught in the web. Nor will the System, more than very rarely admit a mistake or punish prosecutorial wrongdoing, such as lying to the jury to convict or deliberately withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense. Many judges in the NorthEast are said to refer to cop's testimony on the stand as 'testilying.' Even when the evidence clears a suspect, many times the charges aren't tossed, just modified... See -> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/24/california-dui-caffeine-lawsuit-solano-county.

One reason for mass-incarceration is convict labor. After the Civil War, the slaves were freed - except in one special case under the 13th Amendment; the government can keep slaves and engage in 'involuntary servitude' for anyone 'duly convicted' of a crime. Convicts quickly replaced freed slaves as a source of cheap labor that could be rented out to private individuals or used by the states throughout the South. The concept worked very well and spread to other places that had never had the benefits of a captive slave population until then,

Another was as a tool of social control to segregate and manage the lower classes; the book calls it for what it is, prisons and felony convictions are the "New Jim Crow" and it works not only against those of color and the poor, under-educated whites but it is now being turned on the middle classes as well.

Maybe the worst reason is the System can NEVER VOLUNTARILY ADMIT A MISTAKE!

And no, I have never been in trouble, or had a conviction... just been awake and seeing wrongs and injustices other people have gone through for the last 50 odd years even when it was allegedly for their own good, so no, I may love my country and I love the American Dream and all it stood for, but I know that dream isn't real anymore.

Language warning; George Carlin -> https://youtu.be/rsL6mKxtOlQ

@TangoXrayActual
I'm fascinated about how the US of A even can work so relatively well as it does with all of its weird and sometimes seemingly outdated rules and mindsets.

@ryttyr Sixty-plus years of life and getting to know my fellows all over the country has shown me it is mainly because most the little people (us peasants) really do try to do the right things (as they see it) for their country, themselves, their friends and neighbors. Most of the folks who work (not rule) for 'da Gubba'mint' really do so because they love their country and are called to the professions there because they really do want to help make things work for the betterment of all. The good Lord knows the pay isn't the best.

As a whole, we generally try to ignore or disregard the demagogues, preachers, idiots, martinets, lunatics and other crazies that get in the way and generally succeed.... Unfortunately, there is a streak of anti-intellectualism that runs wide, deep and back all the way to the British Colonial period and THAT can be a real problem. It is, you could say, in our blood and national genes, and it bit us; it can happen here. Maybe it is an anglophone thing....

See for more -> https://www.amazon.de/Anti-intellectualism-American-Life-Richard-Hofstadter/dp/0224608592 if you're really interested.

We're also, unfortunately, suckers for snake-oil patent medicine sellers and politicians who tell us they have a bon-i-fid-e, genuine, quick-fix for all our problems and we fall for it over and over and over.

ps. So please, don't look too close, we really keep things patched together by slapping a lot of chewing gum, spit, sealing wax and old plaster over the cracks and the holes. Oh, yeah, we also use a lot of duct tape -'cuz it has a light side and a dark side an' it holds the universe together.... Seriously

@TangoXrayActual
So essentially it works because it always has worked and therefore always will work, despite all the cracks covered by chewing gum and duct tape? The world is constantly changing and the tree must bend to the wind or risk breaking apart.

Yes. I'm surprised that duct tape isn't worshipped despite its almightyness

@ryttyr

> “So essentially it works because it always has worked and therefore always will work, despite all the cracks covered by chewing gum and duct tape?”

Hardly, ryttyr, hardly, but many things that need fixing are too big or are off limits. Pour some concrete into a pothole, for instance, to fix the street outside your house in urban America; go to jail and get billed for the removal of the concrete, so you do what you can; when you can; where you can and for whom you can.

The folks in the government that most people interface with (civil service) are so tightly bound and constrained by rules, regulations, laws and ‘guidelines’ written by the political classes that they can’t budge, let alone provide real substantial help at the individual level many times. Yet they take the blame for the failure, not the Nomenklatura.

> “The world is constantly changing and the tree must bend to the wind or risk breaking apart.”

And break it will.

To use a Russian comparison, we are about to inaugurate our Yeltsin.

@TangoXrayActual
I see.


Sorry, I don't speak Russian.

@ryttyr

- Those who really make the decisions; aka the 'establishment,' or more currently, the 'deep state.'

@TangoXrayActual
ok

@TangoXrayActual You do know that The Guardian and The New York Times aren't exactly objective, right?

Kidnapping Finland? A new landmark in the history of bad ideas.

Percentages, huh... Well 37% of incarcerated are blacks even though overall they're 10% and another 35% are hispanics who overall are only 16%. And what percentage of blacks and mexicans do Scandinavians have?

'@Tyekanik' You're not allowed to cite cultural differences between countries, if it reflects badly on this regressive echo-chamber's fandumb. You think they're going to accept that ethnic group have different cultures, and some are blatantly toxic? That only works if you're bashing American "white trash" (particularly the states containing the black belt...).

@Nephandus You already had one red downvote. Probably from a regressive fandumb, since he didn't have the courage to tell you why...

Here, have an upvote from me, and make sure you give them liberally away as well. So that the ones who just want to hate to hate, don't win the day.

As for the "white trash". It is pitiful that the racists don't see that they're just that. Racists. (Explanation for regressives: No, picking on whites or Jews for your made up reasons is still racism.)

@Nephandus 1: the cultures in America are subcultures. These subcultures are completely different from regular cultures in other countries.

2: I think people already knows that different ethnic groups have different cultures, it's pretty obvious. But the here's the thing, I'm pretty sure it's more about poverty rather than cultural reason she. Don't get me wrong not all cultures are perfect, and I know there are toxic ones out there, but this is really have nothing to do with culture. Duh

3: what was the point of your comment in the first place?

'@kingdelvin12' 1) I have no problem with you admitting that the US is far less homogeneous, though that's a bit odd to admit in context.

2) Comparing poor American "white" cohorts to American black or Hispanic won't serve your assumption. It'll be quite embarrassing, particularly the blacks. "White culture" doesn't remotely work the way black culture does. It's not even a real coherent category. The subcultures of whites in poverty aren't remotely as violent or thieving. Ironically, they're FAR less proudly racist too, which reverses big media and pop culture's pretenses otherwise. They don't get to waive a race card, instead getting the white guilt penalty and the white trash kick while they're down.

3) Oh, you know what we're arguing about, or you would be making the other points at all (unless you're saying had no point in your other points...), so why you fronting on point 3, hmm? The standard criticisms of America(n culture) and particularly white America(n culture) are bloody obvious as are the standard whitewashing of black and Hispanic cultural toxicities. We're not allowed to address primary problems with the primary perpetrating groups because the PC quasi-religion (which has converted the EU and Nordic regions quite thoroughly...) says so, yet we who aren't those groups catch the flak for them with our hands as bound as our mouths. It's a sick joke, which makes most of the jokes around here quite perverse.

@Nephandus 1: American subcultures like black ,white, Latino are pretty much connected to America it's self, reason why its called a subculture and not a actual culture. "ethnic group have different cultures, and some are blatantly toxic?", the sub cultures are somewhat the same because they stem from America.


2:it's not a ethnic culture more of ghetto culture. there are poor whites that are racist, the poor youth in both black and white can have negative side effects for them growing up like gangs, neo-Nazis, kkk, or black panthers. if I'm correct there are less poor whites in America, but there are more poor blacks and Hispanics.

3:gangs are mostly the ones that cause the most trouble/damage for people, in Britain the industrial revolution they had gangs and it was mostly caused from living in poverty or living in poor families.

4: i was just asking what was the point in making that comment in the first place. yes there are sjw's that ruin everything, but no everything has to be about that. this is not addressing the problem this pretty much comparing which race gets the most incarceration, which is really unnecessary for this . instead of talking about the sjw's and race incarceration , how about you figure out a good solution to fix the problem and help everyone.

5: listen the sjws and sensitive people are always going to bitch and moan, even for no reason. besides the world already knows how stupid they are, and how easy it is to laugh at them.

@Tyekanik We're getting there. As you see Norway has the highest stat here, and most of those are the immigrants. Or "refugees" as the Labour party changed the definition to (yes, even if you come from a country with no war, you can become a "refugee" and get better treatment than even native Norwegians). Both Eastern European criminals taking a Nordic tour, or welfare shoppers, "asylum seekers", from Asia and Africa. Mostly Moslem.

At least we have our own Trump-movement in power, and they're slowly pushing back on the importation of foreign criminals and electoral cattle for the socialists and liberals. Only question now is if it'll be enough, and soon enough. Half of Oslo is already non-Norwegian.

@Ferrari27 1: I'm pretty sure the only refugees they're talking about, are the acutal refugees. You know the ones that came in a huge group, and lived in a war-torn country.

2:first off, you said you're getting there even though you said it's mostly Muslims and refugees.

3:"trump's movement" is mostly about jobs, and nothing else. So that's really dumb to call your movement a "trump movement".

4: socialism and liberalism are two different things, one is about the working and the other is , well you know already about that one.

5:duh

@Tyekanik what brought that up? jeez I thought we're all just going to laugh at the comic, but now it just some how gotten serious.

1: lets see, if I'm correct its 14-15% for blacks in population. for the incarnated part that's mostly for males if I'm correct. most of the crime happens in the ghetto/poverty neighbor hoods, were most young men are part of gangs.


2: for Hispanics its 19% not 35%. duh

3: in Scandinavia its mostly Muslims, more of a religious group rather than a racial one. duh again

@Tyekanik if anyone wants to argue with me, then go ahead. I have three of my comments underneath theses three guys . Besides it's not like they're going to even try and argue back anyway, especially seeing how weak/unintelligent their comments are.

@Tyekanik Not bothered to think why 37% of the incarcerated population is African American and the other 35% is Hispanic right? Well let me inconvenience you with some truths:
1) They are more persecuted by the police and justice system than whites!
2) It's statistically proven that a white person is more likely to get off with a pat on the wrist and maybe a fine having been apprehended for similar crimes than a person of one of those minority groups.
3) Blacks and Hispanics get harsher sentences for minor offenses.
4) The institution of policies like stop and frisk which has made racial profiling a way to get more prisoners for jails.
5) The implementation of quotas in some police departments which force the cops to go after the vulnerable and most likely to be taken to court.
Want more?

How about the Private Prision Bussiness that has made profit a big part of the incarceration problem that the US has? And of course they don't go for the Methheads with labs in their kitchen they go for the minorities that can't afford propper representation in court and therefore are most likely to get sent to jail so they can cash their big fat checks!
You have all the information, you just refuse to see it!

@carolgran1

1) They are more persecuted by the police and justice system than whites! - got ANY backup for this?
2) It's statistically proven that a white person is more likely to get off with a pat on the wrist and maybe a fine having been apprehended for similar crimes than a person of one of those minority groups. - is there a SINGLE link to a study?
3) Blacks and Hispanics get harsher sentences for minor offenses. - ANY backup for this?
4) The institution of policies like stop and frisk which has made racial profiling a way to get more prisoners for jails. - how is that even remotely truth, it's just a baseless claim.
5) The implementation of quotas in some police departments which force the cops to go after the vulnerable and most likely to be taken to court. - a single backup link to quotas in police departments?

Want more? - want at least one truth not a bunch of propaganda similar to "women make 70 percent" lies.

And 'of course', 'of course', 'of course' more baseless claims.
Pathetic.

@Tyekanik First of all, the Nordics have a very diffrent history compared to USA. There were barely any people of other ethnecity in the country just a few decades ago, so we dont have the kind of deeprooted enicity issues that you have in the States. The refugee wave changed this.
Even nowdays, the majority of the prisoners are natives, altho criminals of refugee background also are included in the cases when they are not outright banished.

This is just brilliant. And true. The problem is that anything that remotely smells of socialism is terrifying for the US. Point is, as long as you take care of everyone's basic needs, crime goes down. And as long as you invest in your citizens by offering them help instead of sentences, you have more people returning to society instead of crime. It's a win-win.

@LadyLiberty83 The problem is the Myth of the American Dream: if you work hard, you'll be rewarded with success and consequently, people who are poor or unsuccessful must be lazy and deserve it.

@LadyLiberty83 It also doesn't help that the American Public lost its mind in the 90s and passed a bunch of wildly unfair incarceration policies. The "tough on crime" movement in the 90s and onward has nothing to do with crime reduction or even justice: it's about getting catharsis for anger.

@LadyLiberty83 From what I've seen, some Americans seem to think that it's impossible to be rich in Nordic countries because of the high taxes, and that the poor are simply too lazy to work. A pretty sad viewpoint, really.

@Tjaldur Ah, not so much that it's impossible to be rich from the high taxes, although that does come into play (what, penalize people the more they earn?)

It's the idea that it's SOCIALISM, mixed in with the 'too lazy to work' part. "How DARE you take my money and give it to these lazy, worthless people who're violent criminals and ne'er-do-wells who won't do a honest day's work ever in their lives. Or help out people who didn't improve themselves to actually, you know, be able to AFFORD the things they bought."

"As if Russia could sneak up on Finland.." Dont forget this kind of thing, here is French Foreign Legion soldiers answer;
"How well trained are basic Finnish reconnaissance soldiers?"

"You don't want to mess with the Sissi."
"Don´t be fooled by their odd name, they are the epitome of long range reconnaissance patrol and would give anybody on earth a run for their money."
"In support of Matti Porkka ´s answer, I will correlate in saying that some retelling from friends of mine in the Swedish Defense Forces who did joint exercises with them are a bit unsettling…"
"As an exemple, during one of these exercises, a platoon of Swedish soldiers was to try and track down a team of Finnish Long Range Recon Patrol in Northern Sweden. The Swedes were equipped with all kinds of gear including helicopters, night vision gear and K-9 assets."
"The exercise was supposed to last 6 days. The Swedes never found them. They never so little as glimpsed or heard them once and every trail their dogs picked up led into a maze of several hours in impossible terrain before leading them back to the exact original point where they had picked the scent up."
"During this week, the Sissi :
regularly stole food from the Swedes and left thank you notes in Finnish
“ borrowed ” canteens, ammo, clothing and even boots from the Swedes which they hanged up in trees
stuffed the heads of dead rabbits and snakes in some of the Swedes´ rucksacks
woke them up early in the morning with tear gas
they culminated in capturing one of their sentries and held him captive for 48 hours before returning him blindfolded and unarmed but well fed and healthy to his camp"
"At the end of the exercise, the Sissi exposed to the Swedes high resolution photographies of each one of them with names and ranks. They even had some of their nicknames written down. They had sketches portraits of the dogs with their specificities such as name, sex, size, approximative weight and physical characteristics. They also had their radio codes."
"That might give you an idea how well trained and skilled they are at what they do."
"These people train at “ welcoming” Russians to their land again any day of the week since WWII and that is a very serious matter to them. They have not let their guard down since then, it´s part of their military culture. Finns in general are very special compared to the rest of Nordics. Finns are considerably tougher on the average, it is due to a rather unique cultural concept they refer to as sisú. Mental toughness and resolve is still a cultural value to Finns which is very unique among Nordics. I have always been impressed by Finnish military knowledge of bushcraft and winter warfare and not many military in the world of armed forces master these type of knowledge to the extent Finnish long range recon patrols do."
Stay Strong

https://www.quora.com/How-well-trained-are-basic-Finnish-reconnaissance-soldiers

@finnhare I was about to say, no way in hel Russia could sneak up on Finland, and it is true when it comes to it, you are kinda the "second amendment" people of the nordic countries and of course if Russia ever touched Finland, the Scandinavian countries would come to help, not just to help a longtime friend, but also because Russia taking Finland wouldn't be good for any of us. Also the Scandinavian military forces aren't exactly little fuzzy bunny rabbits either ;)

@Danishmusician93 you are right my friend. I know that Finland can always trust other Nordic countries help if necessary

@finnhare tulta munille, indeed!

@finnhare Accidentally reported your comment. Sorry.

For every non-American reading this:

Trump is not America
Our Government is not America
Hatred, intolerance, and brutality is not America

We are America
We the People

The largest demonstration in US history happened on Saturday. We, the People, protested against hatred, intolerance, and brutality. We refuse to be represented by somebody like Trump.

We the People are America

@lbisno1 Found the liberal

@MightyPants Yeah I'm not hiding

@MightyPants You found another one here.

@lbisno1 ... and yet, as for intolerance, no other president in US history has deported more people than Obama. In fact, he deported more than the sum of all US presidents of the 20th century. I think that's ok, I totally agree with it if the criteria is reasonable (criminals should definitely be deported, for example). Besides, Trump was elected by You the People, wasn't he? You may not like the result, but in a democracy you have to respect the outcome of your elections. Finally, if Trump really goes too stupid, you have the legal and institutional tools to stop his measures.

https://www.google.com.br/amp/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story%3Fid%3D41715661

@Dann Well not really, I mean the popular vote was won by Hillary. He won because of the electoral college.

Of course criminals should be deported. I never said they shouldn't.

I'm saying "we the people" in reference to everybody, not just people who agree with Trump. We still exist.

@lbisno1 ahhh, I see... you also adopt this weird system of electoral college... (now I get why you guys say "We the People"). Anyway, don't worry (really!), because no matter who's in charge, you Americans are a strong democracy, you'll survive

@lbisno1 Well said. Also brings to mind the Preamble to the Constitution.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Well...we're still working on it, aren't we? Though we seem to have taken a big step backward (or would it be an about face? God, I hope not...) in the last few months, and especially the last two weeks.

@AllVoicesAnonymous Now you've got me singing it.

@FreyjaRN Singing...it? I've never heard the Preamble sung before.

@AllVoicesAnonymous Schoolhouse Rock. Some things can't be forgotten. Hubby & I are now singing, "I'm Just A Bill".

http://abc.go.com/shows/schoolhouse-rock/episode-guide/season-01/5-the-preamble

The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

Giving good for good is justice, giving good for evil is love.

Trust no one in whom the desire to punish is strong.

@Tiwack "Giving good for evil is love"

Are you suggesting we should go and give Anders Brejvik a biiiig hug?

@DarkMage7280 I don't think that's going to work like it did in Rambo 1 XD

@DarkMage7280 I think what Tiwack means is that we assume that most people are not evil by nature that that likely something is causing them to be that way. Rather than focusing on punishment to those who show abhorrent behavior, we try to figure out why they are doing that.
I still agree with people who say killers and psychopaths should definitely be kept away from the populace as of right now, it's incredibly hard to rehabilitate people like that if it's caused by a mental disorder, genetics or years of built up negative behavior. But I don't agree that they should be sentenced to death or kept in bad living conditions. Most people respond well or at least cordially to being treated like a human being, not a monster. So giving good to the "evil" is a love, a love for all humans even the ones that wrong us.

@DarkMage7280 That is not what he is saying. Allowing Breivik simply to live is love, wich would never have happend in USA.

@Bloodblender But he doesn't deserve any love. Any.
The man's a monster, a beast, he murdered 77 people, and destroyed the lives of many more. He gets to read, watch TV, work out, study and surf the Net.
He gets to live the sort of life none of his victims get to enjoy. Ever. Again.
And you bet he's loving every minute of it.

@DarkMage7280 The thing is this. What is more important? Revenge or a functional society? Norway have the lowest crime rates on the planet for a reason.

@DarkMage7280 No he doesn't. Read this article how the wussy little tough guy wannabee whines about how they "torture" him by not giving him stuff like a sofa: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/anders-breivik-demands-better-video-games-and-threatens-hunger-strike-over-jail-hell-9130592.html . So speaks the self styled hero of Norway, western civilisation and fascism.

@DarkMage7280 Yea, we should give him a hug, he wants us to hate him, so we will prove our ability to, if not compleatly forgive, put it behind us, forget him and move forward. We should maybe sing for him too, I suggest ''Barn av Regnbuen'' (Children of the Rainbow)

@DarkMage7280 Why haven't you killed him yet?

@Tiwack Is that a quote from somewhere? I feel like that is a quote from somewhere

@DaugtherOfTheSea They're all more than a century old.
Top one is by a Russian philosopher Fyodor Dostoyevsky.
Second is an old danish saying.
Last one is by Nietzsche.

@Tiwack That is really cool