Cutting ties

Englad: This union is stupid, I am sick of people taking decisions for me that benefit others but hardly me! I am leaving!
Scotland: Same, same.
Englad: Oh, it's nice to see you came around about this whole silly story! Now lets get to work, we have plenty of it!
Scotland: Haha, no silly, I mean this union. As in the United kingdom, I quit. But no hard feelings, right?
England: Of course old cha-...EXCUSE ME, WHAT?!
Wales: Wait, we can do that?

TO BE CONTINUED!

Next time, in united and restless, will England regret his choices? Will Scotland pack his things and leave for good? Will Wales pick a side? What do the Irish twins have to say? We will find out in the next episode "Bitter tea, bitter feelings." stayed tunned!

Vladimir Bukovsky told us this on 2011.

The Soviet Union was governed by 15 unelected people who appointed each other and who were not accountable to anyone.

The European Union is governed by dozen people who appoint each other, meet in secret and are not accountable to anyone, and whom we cannot sack.

One might say that the EU has an elected parliament. Well, the Soviet Union had a parliament of a sort too, the Supreme Soviet, which just rubber stamped the Politburo decisions. Pretty much like the European parliament does where speaking time in Chamber is limited within each group and often amounts to one minute per speaker.

In the EU there are hundreds of thousands of eurocrats with their huge salaries, their staff, servants, bonuses and privileges, their lifelong immunity from prosecution which is simply shuffled from one position to another no matter what they do or fail to do.

Is it not exactly like the Soviet Regime?

The Soviet Union was created by coercion and very often with a military occupation. The European Union is being created admittedly not by armed force, but by coercion and economic bullying.

In order to continue to exist the Soviet Union spread itself further and further. The moment it stopped spreading it started collapsing. And I suspect the same is true of the European Union.

We were told that the purpose of the Soviet Union was to create the new historic entity, the Soviet people, and that we must forget our nationalities, our ethnic traditions and customs. The same seems to be true of European Union. They don't want you to be British or French, they want you all to be a new historic entity – European – to suppress all your national feelings and leave as multinational community.

After 73 years the same system in Soviet Union resulted in more ethnic conflict than anywhere in the world.

In the Soviet Union one of the grand purposes was the destruction of a nation state. And that's exactly what we observe in Europe today. Brussels intends to absorb nation states so that they should cease to exist.

Corruption was built into the Soviet Union from top – down and so it is in the European Union. The same endemic corruption activity that we saw in old Soviet Union has flourished in the European Union. Those who opposed or exposed it are silenced or banished. Nothing changes.

In the Soviet Union we had the Gulag. I think we have a Gulag in European Union also – an intellectual Gulag known as "political correctness". When anyone tries to speak their mind on questions of race agenda or if their views differ from those approved, they will be ostracised. This is the beginning of Gulag, the beginning of your loss of freedom.

In the Soviet Union, they told us we need a federal state to avoid war. In the European Union they are telling you exactly the same thing.

In short, the same ideology underpins both systems, the European Union is the old Soviet model presented in western guise. But again, like the Soviet Union, the European Union has within itself the seeds of its own demise. Unfortunately, when it collapses – and it will, it will leave a mass destruction behind, and we will be left with huge economic and ethnic problems.

The old Soviet system was incapable of reform. So is the European Union. But there is an alternative to being ruled by those dozen self-appointed officials in Brussels. It is called independence. You don't have to accept, what they have planned for you.

After all you have never been asked, if you wanted to join. I have lived in your future and it didn't work.

'@Morbid' Obviously this is nonsense, hence the downvotes. But anyone curious can see a more coherent (and sourced) breakdown on EU democracy here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU

Arguably the most important point is the one made about national politicians. Many of the same politicians who have ranted about how evil the European Union is were the same politicians making EU decisions. Conventional wisdom says all politicians lie, but I consider badmouthing a law *you proposed and voted for* as 'tyranny' to be a particularly offensive brand of lying hypocrisy. Yet it was and is standard fare among many euroskeptics.

@boring7 EU is not a democracy and has never been a democracy

@Juhani It certainly isn't a constitutional republic like the US. Also, I recall reading that Gorbechov said that the EU was an attempt to recreate the old Soviet Union.

'@Juhani' And yet it is quite democratic. Funny that.

@boring7 Did you get to vote for the President of EU ? NO!

@Juhani

Of course you didn't vote for a "President of the EU", because there's no such thing.

There's a "President of the European Council" (currently Charles Michel, former Belgian PM), who is elected by the democratically elected governments of the member states of the EU. So you did get an indirect vote.

There's also a "President of the European Commission" (Ursula von der Leyen, Germany), She was elected by the European Parliament, which you had a vote in.

And last but not least, theres a "President of the European Parliament" (David Sassoli, Italy), who is also elected by the European Parliament. Again, you got a vote by representation.


But honestly, I don't know why I even bother since you can't even get the names of the offices right.

@detrius Keep on lying

@boring7 So is North Korea they have the word Democracy in the name and they get to vote

'@Juhani' North Korea does not have free elections, direct or otherwise. The EU most certainly DOES. At every level the "shadowy cabal of leaders" is ultimately answerable to votes by citizens, even if it's threaded through an MP that selects a PM that selects a representative.

But this has already been explained and ignored. Screaming "the EU is not a democracy!" is just chaff, a red herring to avoid actual, rational discussion.

@boring7 You are a liar EU is not a democracy

'@Juhani' Thanks for proving my point so succinctly.

@boring7 you are stupid as fuck for believing that the EU is a democracy

'@Juhani' It's interesting how you are incapable of either saying something new or arguing against anything that isn't a straw-man you put up yourself.

@boring7 go troll and lie to someone else troll !

'@Juhani' Cry moar

@boring7 you are the one crying you lying troll

@boring7 Thats wrong though isnt it. The people who run the EU are the council, who's members are directly appointed by the premier of each member nation, the premier you vote for.

'@hackerjack' The "premier"? What's this commie talk?!

Anyways, the "people who run the EU" include several councils which range from directly-democratically-elected to appointed-by-premier to the premiers themselves, but all of these councils come from voters either directly or indirectly.

Indirect representation is still democratic, and the EU is still democratic; but in the quibbling realm of demanding definitions the EU is not a democracy. This is most important to people who want to be technically correct, but make a dishonest claim.

@Morbid
Perfect is the enemy of good.

You're using history as an example of what's to come.


What was Europe before EU.
Protectionist nationalist countries in conflict surrounding resources and the language on the borders. Differing regulations, differing legislation with resulting borderchecks and tariffs.


What is Europe now.
Open borders for trade and movement of people for member nations of the EU.


What is EUs role in this?
Legislative/Regulation/Peer pressure.
Compromises has been found, regulations has been unified and legislation in many historically corrupt countries has been redone to meet the worlds highest criteria.


What does the EU consisting of?
It's memberstates and their leaders and population. Both it's faults and its strenghts, corrupt politicians? Nothing new. Skilled bureaucrats? In most cases yes, especially compared to the rest of the world.


What is the goal of the EU?
Ever closer integration as laid out in the treaty.


Is this achieveable?
None can predict, however US is an good example, open borders between its states, trade and a single currency. EU has been throughout it's existance and even before. Learned from the US as an example.


Is this good for it's population and member states?
Depends on what metric you use, and what you see as ''good''. EU works for its members and its population while following the treaties that has been ratified.


Has there ever been something like the EU before?
No, it is unprecedented. It's organization and its function has never been seen before. Closes thing could be the Old Swiss confederation, founded by it being surrounded by Empires, which very existence pushed the smaller states together as a counterweight to the threat they posed. Not unlike the EU which now very much exists in a new global world of superpowers.

What is the future of the EU?
Most likely? incremental reforms building and adjusting the union to meet both new challenges ahead and tackle long struggeling issues.

@Morbid
Your comparing Political Correctness to an intellectual Gulag really speaks volumes, at least to me.
Political correctness, I feel, stifles a creative mind and instills an underlying, but still ever present fear of social exile due to a differing opinion than that of what is slowly becoming an ever growing echo chamber.

It doesn't even have to be a hurtful opinion either, just a "wrong" one.
..and people wonder why social anxiety is growing

'@Zenon' Political correctness doesn't exist. It's a bugbear invented by whiners on the right who don't want to address *real* topics.

You wanna say awful bigoted things? You can, it's just a lot less people are going to laugh along with you when you do it. A big part of that is the simple increase in the number of people around. Turns out being a loud, offensive prat no one wants to be around means no one wants to be around you. Who knew?

@Zenon

I quoted Vladimir Bukovsky. Only the first line was my own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41Tdl5mvdg

The quoted part starts after 56 seconds from the beginning of the video clip.

@Morbid I'm sorry, but I had to facepalm really hard at your answer, because the only thing you did was show us you don't understand what the Soviet Union was or what the EU is now.

As someone who began life under one of the most brutal communist dictatorships in Eastern Europe and is now a citizen of the EU, let me make it very clear - you come across as that kid who gets given everything by his parents but then throws a temper tantrum because they wouldn't buy him a pony for Christmas. You're not oppressed, you're spoiled.

Likewise, the EU is not a dictatorship, not by a long shot - it's very much a democracy, with all the inefficiency that that entails - just think of the fact that, for any good idea someone has in Brussels, there's bound to be someone who will block it simply because it came from the wrong country, or because they want to use the opportunity to wrangle some concession out of that particular proponent or some other petty thing like that.
The best analogy I can find to how the EU works is as a a bunch of bickering neighbours living in the same building having a tenant's meeting - one of them likes to throw his cigarette buts on the stairs at night, there's another guy that lets his dog crap in the front yard but both of those have a problem with the guy who sings in the shower at three AM, all while the building manager tries to get everyone to get back on track to the original problem of the malfunctioning elevator or wherever other problem popped up that week. And because everyone gets a turn at being the building manager, then the guy who lives on the ground floor will ignore the elevator problem when it's his turn because he doesn't care about it no matter what the others think...

And the sad part is that a lot of politicians use the EU as an excuse for the stupid or arseholeish things they do. "Oh, this thing that's bad for everyone but benefits me personally? I didn't want to do it, but it's the EU that's forcing me to, honest" and then you swallow that bullshit, hook, line and sinker and complain about "EU tyranny", when the truth of the matter is that the EU has very little control about what member states do in their own countries.
Take for example the situation in my native Romania three years ago - the party in power was a bunch of greedy arseholes who tried to pass a law legalising corruption to keep their party leader out of jail - first they tried to frame it exactly as "oh it's an EU mandate", but got called on it, especially since they got to power by playing the populist anti EU card. The we went out into the streets and protested, so they had to switch track and claim it was actually "to ease prison congestion". Again, they got called out on it, and they tried to organise a referendum to get the power they needed - and again got rebuffed bad. Long story short, the governement fell and the party leader is now in jail, as he deserves. All throughout, all the EU could do was "look on in alarm", wring their hands in anguish and pen a strongly worded letter to the Romanian government in order to stop their foolishness. They couldn't even threaten economic sanctions or withholding European funds, because we're so bad at using EU funds we've never managed to use more than 13% of what was available each year...
And speaking of EU funds, do you know how that works? Simply put, it's a system where every member pays a fee proportional to their economy (like how the afore mentioned tenants have to pay for utilities) and then the money gets pooled and gets assigned for whatever needs it most - sure, that guy who lives on the ground floor will complain that "his" money is being used to repair the elevator, because he doesn't use it, and it's exactly that kind of egotistical, narrow minded thinking that capitalism fosters and destroys societies - "if it doesn't benefit me personally, I won't help"

Anyway, coming back to the whole "Soviet Union" analogy - the fact that the UK just upped and left (and let's face it, the thee years it took to accomplish that is their own incompetence, not the EUs) shows you that the EU is nothing like the ol' USSR. Do you know what happened when Hungary tried to implement reforms in 1956 and the Czechoslovaks tried to do the same in 1968? Mind you, this was not even an attempt to leave yet, just to ease up on the oppression a little - well, the Soviets would have none of it and sent their tanks in both times and innocent people died.

And after all that, you have the gall to compare the two, you spoiled brat...

@wingsofwrath No the EU is absolutely not a democracy and it was never intended to be a democracy

@Juhani Define 'democracy'. This might just be a misunderstanding :-)

@Juhani ............ then why do we vote for the politicians who work there??????? And why do they have votes and many different parties within the EU???? That sounds like a democratic process to me

@ACVE Peopel People vote in China and North Korea and they are not democracies

@Juhani Yeah, but unlike in China and North Korea you have many parties and people to choose between and those people are allowed to vote against things in the EU. It's a democratic process. You won't get what you want out of it every time. It's all about getting the majority

'@Juhani' They would be if the vote was free or mattered. The EU has no reasonable comparison to those places. Making such a comparison is facile, and insults the intelligence of the reader.

@Morbid

No. The EU has a number of the problems you mention with a lot of corruption and inefficiency and a growing division between the ruling elite and the ordinary people. However for all its growing autocracy, as others have said its nowhere near as evil as the Soviet empire. That was a brutal and murderous dictatorship. There is a potential, albeit I think still small it might end up going that way if its leaders continued blocking their ears to any complaints but I think its more likely to decline gradually and hopefully end without any great violence or disruption. Overall its a threat to peace, economic prosperity and stability in Europe and bad for the people of the continent, but nowhere near as bad as the Soviet regime.

@stevep59 this is true, the EU might have problems of corruption, inefficiency and the division between the elite and the ordinary but they never sent tanks to crush Brexit like the Soviets did in places like Hungary

Northern Ireland must have already drowned himself.

And this is what happens when people misuse their voting rights for jokes, like the people who voted Harambe for President here in the US. Moreso than those who legitimately voted for Brexit, those who did so as a joke, believing that there was no way it would actually happen, are the real fools. Of course, I myself can't say much from across the pond, but as far as Brits whose opinions I respect are concerned, Brexit was a terrible idea. But even if it weren't, as many other Brits will argue, the fact that so many people voted for it without actually wanting it is ridiculous. I think both sides of the issue can at least agree on that. Though one side is certainly less upset about it...

@OneOfThemOregonians I agree.
I have said that the brits have the politicians they deserve, and the british politicians have the people they deserve.
Cameron agreed to have the referendum, firmly beliving Brexit could not win. So he made the people cast their votes, without knowing what they were voting for. Since no Brexit deal had been agreen upon yet. And once the referendum was over, there was no plan to have a new referendum once the deal had been made. So this was just planned as a fake referendum by Cameron, since he had no plans for how to deal with the consequenses, if Brexit won the vote.
And as you said, a lot of people voted for Brexit, just as an FU vote to the politicians, without actually wanting Brexit to win. And when people misuse their voting rights that way, that shows that they do not deserve a democracy, and that they consider the democracy to be a joke.

@Tjalve

I think it's too harsh to say they don't deserve democracy. People become disengaged from their governments when they are repeatedly ignored and slighted. It's not the voters' fault but the politicians'.

'@photondancer' "Where do stupid politicians come from? Stupid voters."

You'll never get the perfect politician or the perfect system but you WILL get trash if that's all you put into it. Most voters are arrogantly ignorant about some of the most basic topics and willing to embrace or reject politicians for the worst reasons. I'd hazard that NOBODY liked Bojo the clown, but they still voted for him against their own interest and against what they say they want in the opinion polls. In my periphery, the loudest voices screaming their hatred for Jeremy Corbyn have been the ones who hate Johnson's positions even more, but want to 'punish' Corbyn for being too close to Johnson's positions.

To draw an analogy, this is like being offered pie or broccoli for dessert, and choosing the broccoli because "the pie wasn't sweet enough."

And this is nothing on the blinkered ignorance. The most popular pro-Brexit memes were all proven to be bald-faced lies, yet they were still the most popular and convinced the most Brexiteers. And pointing it out or trying to correct misconceptions resulted in hatred and rejection. How do you correct someone's misconceptions when they blame you and get mad for correcting them?

@boring7

" How do you correct someone's misconceptions when they blame you and get mad for correcting them? "

That's exactly the problem I keep having with the hard line fanatics who say that everything is Britain's fault regardless of the actual facts. They don't like it and scream insults because that makes them feel better and that's all they care about regardless of the mess their made.

'@stevep59' The problem isn't "Everything is Britain's fault". The problem is your own posts say NOTHING is Britain's fault. You end up defining EVERYONE who disagrees with you or stands up to your hegemony as "terrorist".

You even set up the failure to be "their" fault. Consider a Northern Ireland referendum that decides for reunification 49-46 (with 5% 'undecided', according to the most recent poll I could dig up). Oh that can EASILY be defined as "undemocratic" or "caused by fanatics" and ignored. Massive violations of EU sovereignty along the Irish border? Well they better not set up checkpoints or block trade because it will all be THEIR fault.

You have brooked NO possibility that London will demand checkpoints and cargo-inspections if illegal goods/materials/people come into the UK through Ireland. Tell me, if 2000 muslims go through Ireland to northern Ireland to England are you going to demand checkpoints on the border? Will that be Britain violating the GFA or will you still blame the EU as you seem to always do?

You even make it clear that in your mind only the good, proper, socially-acceptable Anglicans are "tolerant" while any catholic is...what? A terrorist apparently?

Screamed insults to make you feel better and reject responsibility for the mess YOU made.

@boring7

Well there's a lot of outright falsehoods there. I haven't said nothing is Britain's fault at all. I have often complained about the behaviour of the British government. However I have also pointed out that the EU has done a lot of things wrong and that is what you find so totally unacceptable. That your beloved autocratic megastate is in any way less than perfect and it shouldn't be questioned at all.

Ditto with the pretense that I'm calling everybody who opposed me having a say in my government a terrorist. Even for someone as bigoted and closed mind as you that's a hell of a fabrication. I have only called people who believe in the use of force - often lethal - to get their way terrorists. Ditto its farcical that a desire to have a say in how my country is control and opposing it being dictated to by others is being hegemonic.

If by "their" you mean the EU then that is accurate. They are the only group that wants to end the GFA, unless all their demands for continued control of the EU are met. Its the EU that is threatening border controls unless they get everything exactly as they demand in every detail. You admit yourself that the EU has continually threatened to do so. Although its more a case of "not getting everything Brussels wants" than massive violations of EU sovereignty".

I know of no desire on the British side to set up such checkpoints, only on the EU side. There would be an issue if illegal immigrants or say criminals used the open border to smuggle say drugs or people across the border but as they have made clear the EU is the ones who want to close the border. Such actions would of course be a massive violation of British sovereignty but since you see the British as a slave population who should have inflicted on them anything Brussels wants you see that as no problem, being a total hypocrite.

For your information I'm not a Christian so your religious bigotry missed the point there. I've never said anything against any religious group, although I rejected the ideas of the Abrahamic religions on moral grounds decades back so again your totally talking BS. I have talked about terrorist and extremists and during the period of the so called troubles the IRA and other such groups probably killed more Catholics than their fellow vermin on the so called 'Loyalist' side.

I don't know of any recent 'referendum' although it sounds like your referring to some poll? As I've said before I've never opposed the idea of a united Ireland, nor to the best of my knowledge has any element of the British government. The problem has been we oppose the idea of unification by force. If the north voted to leave the UK and join with the south I would wish them well, which would not just be because the EU would lose their power to continue threatening the ending of the GFA to try and extract further concessions from Britain.

Screaming insults like you do probably do make you feel better about your stupidity but it only show how empty and moral free you are.

'@stevep59' "I haven't said nothing is Britain's fault at all."
Actually you did. Or at least you said literally everything is the fault of someone besides Britain. I don't find the implicit v. explicit hair-split to be compelling or interesting. But it's fine, at least *when pressed* you'll admit Britain messes up from time to time.

"However I have also pointed out..."
No, you haven't. You've made assumptions and straw-men and had a surprising amount of trouble pushing them down.

"Ditto with the pretense that I'm calling everybody who opposed me having a say in my government a terrorist."
No, you called anyone ELSE who has a say in your government a terrorist. And yes, you *did* do that.

"If by "their" you mean the EU then that is accurate. They are the only group that wants to end the GFA, "
And here's where the hypocritical lie is. NO ONE wants to end the GFA, but both sides are demanding an end to things that the GFA relies upon to exist. To put it simply:
-The GFA relies on an open border for people and goods between the two territories.
-'sovereignty' and 'consumer standards' rely on both sides of the border being able to CLOSE it to things they don't want. UK refuses to be bound by EU standards. EU refuses to lock down things the UK wants locked down. NEITHER side wants to take the blame but both sides are demanding things that will violate the treaty*.

"as they have made clear the EU is the ones who want to close the border"
You keep claiming this with zero evidence. And look, here's a leaver saying he wants border controls: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukips-nigel-farage-wants-tighter-controls-on-northern-ireland-and-republic-border-29404652.html Of course once he had to do more than throw stones and was asked to come up with an actual plan he...threw stones and demanded Brussels do it for him.

"I know of no desire on the British side to set up such checkpoints, "
Well I just gave you one. Further examples run into the same problem your own LACK of "EU Checkpoint supporters" has; that no one actually wants to end the GFA but they don't know how to do anything else (besides give up their own self-rule to some now-foreign entity).

"your religious bigotry...I've never said anything against any religious group,"
You said: "a million resentful Protestants somehow forced into their state, albeit the latter is a lot more tolerant"

"The problem has been we oppose the idea of unification by force."
Your implicit assumption any such vote would be under threat and force continues to be problematic.

"Screaming insults"
Hard no. I'm not bothering with insults. Just making observations on the things you have said and implied.

"better about your stupidity"
THAT, on the other hand...that's an insult.

Bottom line: Brexiteers decided to change things, the burden of figuring out how to make the changed things work is on them. The EU owes you NOTHING in terms of changing their own rules to fit your new ones.


*If it's not technically a "treaty" blah blah blah no one cares.

@boring7

Bottom line your lying as you make up wild accusations and desperately denying everything when your BS is pointed out. Goodbye troll.

'@stevep59' *You* are the one making accusations, denying facts, offering no citations for your claims and having those claims disproven.

You are the one hurling insults. You are the one refusing to discuss things honestly. You are the one who is setting up 'catch-22s' regarding responsibility.

You cheerfully stand on the hill that says The British Empire owes the European Union nothing. You are correct in this. But there's a hill just as tall and just as correct that says, "The European Union owes YOU nothing."

Well, y'all probably owe each other a LOT of fiddly-bit small change in ongoing business, but that's not really relevant.

@boring7

You have two choices. You can continue lying to yourself or you can actually read what I said. Don't expect you to do the latter but keep up the pointless BS and I will simply ignore any further crap.

'@stevep59' I *have* read what you said.

Why haven't you?

@Tjalve

See your being very selective in what information/decisions you use there. The people of Britain have very little say in the politicians that rule them, both at London and at Brussels.

Cameron agreed the referendum simply because he couldn't avoid it, especially after the EU decided to treat his pleas for change, no matter how minor with complete contempt. Having got nothing from the EU and made a commitment he knew had been important in getting him into power and in preventing the collapse of his party he had no choice.

It was expected that remain would win, which is probably a factor in many people, especially on the leave side not voting. However leave did win and regardless of you contempt for democracy that is the key factor. Whether that was in part because of a protest vote against their helplessness in the face of established power in both Brussels and London or in part because those established elites have believed their own delusions or not we will never know.

Your stance is that of the autocrat. When people make a protest vote because that's the only way they can have any say that represents a problem with the established system NOT the people. The fact your response to people disagreeing with you is to suggest they should not have any say is an indicator that you are unfit for power, not right to seek to deny others what little power they have. I suggest you actually read what you said and think over it.

@OneOfThemOregonians
... but Harambe would have made a great president! Even underage and dead as he is... just look at the competition. lol If it helps, the posts about it were false. ;-)

That said, I voted third party... which was just as pointless because no one else wants to "throw their vote away" so they vote for one of the two evils. However, in Oregon, Dems always win so didn't matter anyway.... dang Portland ruining the state, wonder if they'll ever learn? - you'd think the new sales tax would clue them in, rapidly increasing cost of living (gentrification of the entire state), or the constant bypassing of ballot measures if the results didn't go their way. Yup, I get how it feels to be in someone else's boat. Q_Q

@OneOfThemOregonians It's a bit more complicated than that. There were plenty of people who realised there were EU rules/regulations/agreements that hurt their interests in some areas, and they wanted to be rid of those. Many of them also recognised there were EU rules/regulations/agreements that they benefited from, but many were persuaded that those things would obviously continue if 'Leave' won - after all, those were sensible - that it didn't persuade them not to support Leave.
Some have started to realise that the second part of their scenario isn't happening, like the Cornish people who rather plaintively asked for assurances that the UK government would fund several projects that the EU paid for once the EU money stopped after Leave, or the farmers who suddenly seem bothered that UK food standards will have to change for a trade deal with the US.

@MercianMercenary That's why I said I can't say much on the issue myself. My main problem was with the joke voters, of which there were many, which is just a complete waste of a right which had to be fought for and died for in the past. Just so present-day citizens can misuse it on a whim.

We Nordics welcome Scotland as brothers with open arms in the event they should leave England, hopefully they will also we welcomed back inte the EU.
Also something that's not mentioned in the comic is how fucked Northern Ireland gets now because of their land border to thre rest of Ireland.

@ASlyMagpie Yes indeed, as long as they promise to bring along an offering of Scotch
As for Northern Ireland... prepare to queue of The Troubles 2: Electric Boogaloo on your local jukebox.

'@ASlyMagpie' Scotland's big obstacle is Spain. If they make it look easy for a broken-off piece of a state to get back into the EU with "minimal trouble" then several chunks of Spain will try to do exactly that. Spain doesn't want that, so they're going to scream at the EU to not allow that.

Northern Ireland? My prediction is that Bojo's Tories will do what they did for years; kick the can down the road and hope someone else does something to take the blame. They'll do a whole lot of NOTHING, and expect Ireland to do it instead. Ireland will either have to "secure" the border (making violation of the Good Friday agreement somehow their fault, even though it isn't) or take an equally hands-off approach. In the latter scenario, there's a massive illegal trade/smuggling operation within 6 months and shocking revelations of horrible crimes (think "dead kids in shallow graves") that forces the issue.

The Troubles will return soon after, and while lots of fingers will be pointed it's actually going to be Bojo the Clown's fault.

@boring7 I'm not sure of that. I'm speaking from ignorance on Spain's situation, but it seems that the difference between Catalan independence and Scottish independence is that Scotland is already an independent country, and has been since the 12th century (or before). The UK is a union of 4 separate nations. It wouldn't be a precedent for breaking up Spain -- I think it would be like admitting Eastern Germany as "part of Germany" or Greenland declaring independence from Denmark and leaving the EU. It's been taken out against its will and has already been a member. They can make a good case for re-entry.

I think Scotland is likely to leave the UK. It didn't vote for Brexit -- literally, none of its constituencies did. One big reason the 2014 Independence referendum failed was because they'd have exited the EU if they separated from the UK and would have had to fight to get back in. It's different now: they've been taken out of the EU by force. And even if it's hard, it's worth it! They'll have no chance at prosperity with England: all the wealth is concentrated in the South of England and as long as the Scots vote SNP (or even Labour) they'll be ignored at best and targeted at worst. Comparing that status to the prosperity of the Republic of Ireland suggests that the EU is a better bet than the UK.

They'd fit nicely in with the Nordics, since they pretty much are one. And we'd (Canada) happily trade with them; most of the original UK settlers here came from Scotland.

Northern Ireland will wind up reunited with the Republic and no-one will be happy, really, except for the English, who hate Northern Ireland. And poor Wales will be dragged around by England like a little kid with a puppy.

'@jrochest' The legality of "you're out, now you're back in" is still problematic simply because of how it was admitted in the first place. And the legality isn't the only problem. It's also the politics, and what people end up thinking because of what happened.

Of course "Spain will oppose" doesn't mean "Spain will succeed." The EU has a parliament, it's democratic, so we'll see.

@boring7

Well you can make excuses for the extremists and the bigots but its only the EU that's determined to kill off the GFA. Yes elements of the Irish imperialist movement are going to go back to murdering people - that's already happening if you actually noticed. Also the EU is likely to try and blame Britain for the results of the EU's playing with fire. Which is also going to cause concern in other areas with violent anti-democratic groups about the EU's behaviour.

Don't be confident that a return to violence will make a united Ireland a probability. People trying to murder you because you simply exist and disagree with them don't tend to endear their 'cause' to their planned victims. The majority of the population are still Protestant and the primary reason they have no interest in Irish unity is because groups like the IRA have prevented it by their bigotry.

Britain has always taken the view its up to the people of N Ireland who governs them and it was a sign of the changes south of the border that Dublin finally accepted that in the 1990's. If the north did decide for reunification then that's fine by me and most people in Britain as long as the people of the province freely choose that. If its partly due to murderous terrorist that's a different matter and also Dublin may not be that welcoming to a million resentful Protestants somehow forced into their state, albeit the latter is a lot more tolerant than in previous decades.

This problem is being caused by the EU's control obsession and its often stated commitment to the view that Britain must clearly fail as a state to frighten others out of considering leaving. If the EU does force Dublin to close the border because Britain becomes an independent state its no one's fault other than the EU no matter what liars like Barnier say.

And the fallout has just begun with news leaking that the EU will now obviously side with Spain on the issue of Gibraltar, handing Spain a de facto veto on any deal with the EU for Britain:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-trade-talks-eu-to-back-spain-over-gibraltar-claims

I told Brexiters this would happen before they left - including one on this site - but of course they didn't listen.

Anyone who knows their European history knows that Britain for centuries sought to secure it's position of influence by playing out different European powers against each other, making sure that no European power became to strong to threaten them on their island.

Joining the EU was a logical step in this historic tradition, to make sure the big powers France and Germany didn't get to set the agenda in Europe alone.

And now, in leaving the EU, Britain is breaking with a geostrategic policy that has served her extremely well for all those centuries.

Instead of playing out different European nations against each other, she has put herself at odds against more or less all of them, united in the EU.

Which inevitably will lead to the EU backing Spain on Gibraltar and Ireland on Northern Ireland for instance - because the EU will obviously ALWAYS back the interests of member states over the interests of non-member states.

Britain has thus seriously weakened her own influence in Europe and that will undoubtedly have negative consequences for her in many ways in the years to come.

@Nisse_Hult Citing the guardian makes your point invalid. You're not an expert, stop larping

@CanuckAbroad

Oh, don't worry - you'll be reading the same news in other newspapers soon enough.

Well, compared to any Brexiter I certainly seem to have a better grasp of both history and reality.

But Brexiters famously don't listen to experts anyway.

They're to busy chasing unicorns in the magical world inside their own heads to bother with anything as mundane as listening to people who actually know stuff.

@Nisse_Hult If you think Ireland is going to be taking back the north anytime soon or Spain is going to be able to do anything about Gibraltar, I got a bridge to sell you.

@CanuckAbroad

I'll just copy-paste part of what I wrote to boring7 below before you posted this:

"In the case of Northern Ireland Britain has already signed on to them being allowed to join the republic if a majority of their population so wishes - that's part of the Good Friday agreement."

And in the case of Gibraltar it's always been the British position that they are only honouring the will of the people living there - who have repeatedly voted to remain with the UK.

But in the referendum on Brexit 95.91% of voters in Gibraltar backed remain, with a turnout of 83.64%.
No other part of the UK or territory had anywhere near that massive support for remain.

So it's not at all unreasonable to think that a future referendum in Gibraltar about joining Spain - and thus rejoining the EU - might give a different result.

But it's obviously never the case that Spain or Ireland will be doing anything about these territories.
Instead, if any change will happen in their status, it will be the result of the population in those territories wanting that change.
And if that happens, Britain will be basically powerless to stop it as they can't really hold on to them by the use of brute force.

And the same obviously goes for Scotland as well.

@Nisse_Hult Gibraltar hates Spain and has for a long time. Leaving the EU won't change that.

@CanuckAbroad

We'll just have to wait and see - won't we?

'@CanuckAbroad' It does. But people's opinions don't always matter in who annexes whom.

I don't think anyone here is claiming Spain seizing Gibraltar would be *right*, I think we all agree it would be *wrong*. The point is the UK just did everything it could to make sure they can't do anything about it.

@boring7 Spain seizing Gibraltar would be an act of war. Spain would never do that. The only way Gibraltar would become Spanish would be through a referendum, which the people of Gibraltar don't want.

'@CanuckAbroad' There are plenty of ways to force capitulation without violent invasion. Not to mention simply refusing to recognize British sovereignty over the area through courts.

@boring7 Nothing Spain hasn't tried before. Their attempts to take Gibraltar will continue to fail.

@CanuckAbroad

The people of Gibraltar have nothing against referendums on rejoining Spain - they have already had at least two of them since the 1960's so another one wouldn't be strange or unprecedented in any way.

But while the earlier ones resulted in massive support for staying with the UK, there is no way of knowing if that will hold in the future.

As I said before, the people of Gibraltar voted as massively to remain in the EU in that referendum - and that wish was just ignored by Britain.

A future referendum on rejoining Spain - and thereby the EU - might therefore end quite differently then the previous ones, where the question of EU membership was not on the ballot.

@Nisse_Hult There is no proof that Brexit has soured Gibraltar so badly that they would vote to become a part of Spain, especially while Spain is currently in crisis mode with separatist sentiment at a near all time high.

@CanuckAbroad

No, of course not yet - because virtually nothing has changed yet.

Britain and Gibraltar still enjoys the exact same benefits of being an EU member for the rest of this year, at least.

It's what comes after this transition period that will actually bring the consequences of Brexit - and nobody knows exactly what they will be now, because that depends on the deal Britain makes with the EU.

What is clear is that it won't produce what the leaders who sold Brexit to the British public has claimed - because they have promised things that the EU simply never will accept.

Which is why basically every expert with any knowledge on the complexity of the negotiations ahead and Britain's economy said already before the referendum that Brexit would be bad for Britain.

To which the Brexiters answered "to hell with experts!", basically.

So, when the consequences of Brexit actually hits home - that's when we'll see what the population of Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Scotland and the rest of the UK actually thinks about it.

Up until then it's just speculation - except all the experts agree it's going to be bad.
The question is just how bad, really.

@Nisse_Hult "Basically", so that isn't what they said. Either way, the UK will be better off than Sweden, so they got that going for them. Also, if the EU is so great why hasn't your country gone all in and adopted the Euro?

@CanuckAbroad

The exact words where "I think people of this country have had enough of experts..." - which is basically the same as "to hell with experts!".

This was said by Michael Gove when pressed by a journalist on why basically every organisations representing any knowledge on the issue said that Brexit was a bad idea, before the referendum.

See for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz1_LHtfuCI

His partner and current PM Boris Johnson then some months after the referendum added "Fuck business!" for good measure, when met with criticism over his Brexit stance by business leaders.

These are idiots who know nothing and listens to no one who does - and they're going to screw their own country massively.

The EU and the Euro are different things, Sweden after a referendum chose not to adopt the latter - which was the smart move.

I voted against adopting the Euro - as I voted against joining the EU in the first place.

You have no idea where I actually stand on the EU - you're arguing with a fantasy of your own creation.

But regardless of where I stand on the EU, or if Sweden did or didn't adopt the Euro, it's still a fact that it's a massive mistake for Britain to leave the EU.
One that was sold by lying demagogues to an ill-informed electorate in a stupid referendum which didn't even spell out what people voted for.

And as a consequence, it'll cost Britain dearly in years to come.

All that remains to be seen is how dearly and in what way she'll be forced to pay the price.

@Nisse_Hult All just wishful thinking on your part. The UK has the tools needed to succeed outside of the EU. The EU is just trying to make an example of them so that no one else will think to leave. This extends to you, you want to see the UK fail so you can feel confident in your false sense of intellectual superiority towards people who were sick of the experts who said the Iraq war was a great idea and failed to predict the 2008 recession.

@boring7

No, no, no - there is absolutely zero chance that Spain would ever seize Gibraltar by force.

That would turn world opinion, the rest of the EU and NATO solidly against Spain and utterly destroy their argument for rejunification.

Hitler and Putin rejoined lost pieces of their countries territories by force - that's not a precedent any democratic nation wants to follow.

No, if Gibraltar where ever to rejoin Spain (and I think they will, sooner or later), it will be because the people living there actually want to do so.

'@Nisse'_Hult Recent events fill me with doubt on those "it can never happen here" claims. Spain's brutal crackdown on Catalonia, the fascists repeatedly winning elections in western democracies, concentration camps and hate crimes...

It will be nice if events prove my fears and doubts unfounded.

And Gibraltar won't be wanting to join Spain without something massive swinging public opinion.

@boring7

"And Gibraltar won't be wanting to join Spain without something massive swinging public opinion."

No - but the fallout from Brexit could certainly be that "something massive".

Again:

"But in the referendum on Brexit 95.91% of voters in Gibraltar backed remain, with a turnout of 83.64%.
No other part of the UK or territory had anywhere near that massive support for remain."

'@Nisse'_Hult Or a massive embargo.

'@Nisse'_Hult Sucks to be Gibraltar. They DON'T want to be part of Spain's drama (actually, fair counterpoint to King Europe is that Spain has even worse nonsense drama) but that Hard Brexit Border's gonna hurt. Probably why they voted 95% to remain.

Interesting (from a safe distance) possibility: Gibraltar ends up going in and out of the EU twice in the span of a decade as they are dragged out by UK, dragged back in when annexed by Spain, and dragged out again when Spain splinters.

That would be really funny to those of us not repeatedly hurt by it.

@boring7

Odds are they end up joining Spain and Northern Ireland end up joining Ireland.
Both of them voted to remain in the EU and when leaving end up costing those places dearly it's not hard to see most of the people living there wanting to move the border to rejoin automatically.

In the case of Northern Ireland Britain has already signed on to them being allowed to join the republic if a majority of their population so wishes - that's part of the Good Friday agreement.

I'm not to sure Spain actually splinters. There have been regional tensions in Spain for centuries - it's hard to see what is so very different this time around.
But I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see.

'@Nisse'_Hult Spain seems stranger, but regardless the prevailing unionists (or whatever the term is) don't want ANY political ammunition to be provided to the separatists.

Northern Ireland...well it *doesn't* want to join the RoI. Not strongly enough for it to be a politically healthy decision anyway ( https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/slight-majority-for-unification-in-northern-ireland-poll-1.4015170 ). But public opinion seems fairly certain a hard border would start up the violence again.

And even if things do shake out okay, it was a risk that didn't need to be taken and gained the UK nothing (and cost her greatly). But it let angry bigots feel good about themselves and helped the Russian Kleptocracy continue it's hegemonic expansionism, so it was a win for fascists the world over.

@boring7

You claim that Northern Ireland *doesn't* want to join the republic - and then link to an article talking about an opinion poll showing that they actually do?

Obviously no one would be pressing the issue for a rejunification with that slim a margin though - that would be a recipe for disaster as you rightly say.

But if Brexit turns out to be as economically bad for Northern Ireland as virtually every expert has predicted, opinions might obviously change.

There is also the demographic factor.
The ones most opposing rejunification are the oldest - and they are dying off.
The most in favour are the youngest - and there are more of them being made every day.

'@Nisse'_Hult My point was; Reunification on a 50% 'majority' is asking for as-big (or bigger) trouble than forcing Brexit.

@boring7

And I agreed with you on that point.

But stating that the people of Northern Ireland don't want to reunite with Ireland and then linking to an article that talks about polling that shows that yes, they in fact do - albeit by a small margin - is kind of misleading, don't you think?

'@Nisse'_Hult Probably because that's not what I actually said. Also, I was speaking historically.

A quick look at opinion polls over the last few years showed strong opposition up until recently. Now it still can't get a majority (just a "largest minority") which makes it as politically suicidal as being a Tory Prime Minister and holding an up-or-down vote (that's not even binding) when you can't be certain of the outcome and then fumbling through the aftermath including declaring it to be binding anyway.

THAT was what I said.

@boring7

"Probably because that's not what I actually said."

Oh yes you did.

Compare:

"Northern Ireland...well it *doesn't* want to join the RoI."

vs.

"Slight majority for unification in Northern Ireland – poll"

See the problem?

'@Nisse'_Hult Yes, I see the problem.

The problem is, you're being insulting and childish. Not even for any reason.

@Nisse_Hult

Well that means a default to world trade terms if the idiots in Brussels allow the bigots in Madrid to dictate a no deal solution. And the blame for that will be clear for all bar the most bigoted EU-nationalists.

Your wrong of course in saying that Britain did the right thing in joining the EU. Apart from the huge economic and social costs it went against Britain's long term interests in that it made possible a large autocratic bloc over most of Europe. By doing so we killed off the EFTA which provided an alternative to the EEC and might well have been a lot more attractive to much of eastern Europe once the Soviet empire fell. Europe might have been markedly more vigerous and successful if its people's had some options rather than one camp which put ideology and delusions ahead of the needs of its people. Its unlikely the Euro would have caused the economic chaos it had in such a scenario - or at least the damage would have been restricted to those unlucky/unwise enough to be members of the EU.

You do realise that most people in the United Kingdom WANTED to leave right?

That's why they voted for it

@LogicMeister Much of the information that was being argued before the election, that many people based their vote on, was questionable at best.

@Kvaseren Yes. But thankfully those who knew the least about the matter, and had the most questionable (and since proven wrong) info, lost.

I could be mistaken tho, and the island will disappear under the waves tomorrow tho... ;)

@LogicMeister Most people in UK who voted, voted to leave.
And normally I would agree that should mean they actualy wanted to leave. But the problem here is that very many of them claim they DIDN'T want to leave. They just wanted to protest against the government.
Also, while most people in England voted to leave, most people in Scotland (and Wales, I believe) voted to stay. So I guess you're equally ok with Scotland and Wales voting to leave UK then?

Additionally, the referendum was incredibly stupid, since no deal had been agreed upon. So people didn't actually know what they were voting for. And the politicians lied about what leaving would actually mean. But then, most politicians lie all the time. So that's no surprise.

@Tjalve That's just wrong information you got there.

@Tjalve

The majority in England and Wales voted for the UK to leave the EU. The majority in Scotland and Ulster voted for the UK to stay in the EU. There's a significant difference between the latter and the idea that they want to leave the EU.

@LogicMeister This is outright false, you know that right?
Most people didn't vote for Brexit. Out of 46.5 Million registered voters only 17.4 Million voted to leave. That's not even a majority of the registered voters! So lets not even start talking about what the 63.2 Million people in the United Kingdom wanted...

@Drazahir

Your groping at straws here and displaying a contempt for democracy. Yes some 18M people don't have the right to vote, mostly because their deemed too young to vote. That occurs just about everything where voting is allowed, including in the rest of the EU. Ditto quite a number of voters didn't use their right to do so, which is their choice. That's again the way democracy works and given that just about everybody was expecting remain to win its probably more likely that those were disatisfied leave voters who felt there was no point to their trying. Hence claiming that most people didn't vote for Brexit is as relevant as claiming that most people didn't vote to stay.

@stevep59 I wasn't grasping at anything, I pointed out a factual error. Because there's absolutely zero evidence that most people in the UK wanted to leave and there still isn't, in fact polls indicate the contrary.
Same with the electorate, it was just a plurality of the electorate that voted to leave, not a majority.
But I'm not arguing against the outcome of the election, the results are what they are, they basically say nothing at all.

I don't really care what happens to the UK at this point, I would have prefered if you stayed but you decided not to, that's behind us. The EU however have no obligation to give a flying flamingo about the UK electorate's will, I think the EU should take a very hard line and not budge at all on the 4 pillars, ie if the UK want market access or favored status over WTO default rules then you gotta accept the other 4 pillars etc, all of them. ie the UK can choose between no deal and no access, or a Norway deal where they accept ECJ jurisdiction etc etc in exchange for access. If the UK wants to duke it out alone, then really duke it out alone. Good luck with that, but don't expect to cherrypick what you want out of the EU.


Now if you really want to argue the election I think that either the first election should have been ran completely differently, or there should have been 2 elections.
Basically it's too easy to change the status quo, and, I would argue that changing it on something massive like that should have required a majority of the electorate(more than 50% of all elegible voters), or a significantly larger voter share(something like 65+%). Basically everybody who didn't bother to vote was comfortable with the status quo and that should be taken into consideration.

As it stands nobody has any clue whatsoever which leave option the electorate voted for, because that question wasn't asked. Either the terms for leaving should have been done and sealed before the elction so there's only an unabiguous Stay or and unabiguous "leave under these exact premises" choice, or there should have been a second referendum once the leave deal had been determined asking something along the lines of
1. Leave under Johnson/May's deal
2. Yolo hard exit, no deal at all.
3. Revoke A50.

@Drazahir

I fear as you say the EU will continue to refuse to accept we're leaving and continue to cherry pick itself. That's why Barnier is nicknamed Double Standards, because he's been doing such on a number of subjects from the start. Similarly with his BS that the EU will veto any deal which recognises that we're left.

In which case the only responsible option is the hard exit. If the EU refuses to give up control of Britain then to be frank they can go to hell. It takes two to tango, or to bargain and if the EU refuses to do so then we're wasting our time trying to talk to them. This would of course mean that the EU loses all say on British rules and regulations, all access to British fisheries and all further subsidies. Basically I, like many others are fed up with the EU mis-leadership and their lies, threats and insults.

As I've said before I recognise there is fault on both sides and as a liberal wouldn't trust Johnson and his gang any further than I could throw the Alps. However at least this way we get rid of one set of parasites. Hopefully then we can concentrate on removing the others.

@LogicMeister I remember to have heard that many people vote for leaving because they believed the brexit propose was gonna lose. Like if people would have vote for Trump believing he was gonna lose. Cry or laugh, but choose wisely than British men

@Schattensturm Well, that you can stuff in the bag where all the other propaganda should be. "The Brexit voters are stooopid, we are the smart ones", is rather arrogant.

@Ferrari27

Which is a good demonstration of why leave won. If the EU had been willing to show even token respect for Cameron's request for some improvement in the UK's position leave might well have lost. However their got so contemptuous of ordinary people, in the UK and elsewhere and blinded by their own delusions of every growing centralisation that they cocked it up royally.

This is still going on. There was a classic example the other day when they were covering the 'leaving' - although we won't actually be doing so until the negotiations are completed, hopefully Johnson is right for once and it will be the end of this year. Some idiot in the EU Parliament was sounding off about Brexit starting when Britain got a partial rebate for its excess payments, which is rubbish. He also went on to say that Britain [and by implication other nations] should have been forced into both the single currency and the Schengen Agreement - although how the hell he expected that to occur I don't know. Basically bigoted fanatics have far too much power.

Similarly there was an interview with someone from the Irish government where he was asked about some insults from the Irish PM - which he definitely didn't deny occuring but waffled to avoid giving an actual answer.

Schattensturm does have a point in that politics and politicians have abused the people badly, probably more in Britain that elsewhere in Europe because of our FPTP system. As such a simple yes/no vote where the actual majority mattered and hence individual votes counted probably played a part with a protest against both London and Brussels.

@Ferrari27 I am not saying anything about that, i was just pointing to some info i remember to have heard. It may be true or not. Humans certainly are stupid enough to make that kind of things. If British have or not made something like that is beyond my knowledge. In any case the only thing my country cares about UK is the Malvinas Islands

@Tjalve Wales voted leave. Northern Ireland stay.

@LogicMeister There's that bit about how the inquiries to Google about what the EU does spiked in the UK right after the referendum (which I'm not sure if it's true, but I have yet to see someone from there deny it).

Then you have the real fact that all of their minor territories that depend on European trade, as well as at least two of their main territories voted to stay.

Add to that lots of misinformation and that assassination of one of the main pro-EU politicians the week before the referendum (if I remember correctly), and you tell me.

@Kemm You can use Google Trends to check any search term yourself: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=GB&q=what%20does%20the%20EU%20do

@LogicMeister The vote totals varied by region, and the majority of Scottish and Northern Irish voters voted to remain with the EU, while the majorities in England and Wales were for leaving. So Scotland freaking out about losing the tie to Europe, while England cuts the tie fits.

@LogicMeister Shhh! We are here to hate. We must hate. All we do is hate.

Satwcomic is sadly on the end of a political spectrum, and therefore people far out there, are drawn to it.

It is kinda sad. An otherwise interesting concept is destroyed, by for instance the ever present Trump hatred. But this is what happens in Europe. The left has a stranglehold on the media, so that young people are de facto indoctrinated just like people were behind the Iron Curtain.

At least we can rejoice in that the haters are on the losing side in history, and in the future people will laugh more at the attitudes, like this one against Brexit, than at the intended jokes themselves.

@Ferrari27 This place is on some end of the political spectrum in Europe? ... I just figured it followed how most Europeans think. lol Oh well, I still get a laugh from the comics.

BTW Trump is fun to make fun of, but as crude and terrible person as he is, he's better than letting the Democrats win and hasn't done a 10th of what the media makes him out to do. Dig into it, the Republicans aren't great, but the Democrat's goal is a society that resembles the one in Hunger Games, just have to look at the result of every city and state they control.

@LogicMeister Alsoalso, the British who lived in other countries weren't allowed to vote on the matter, screwing over exactly them who the vote mattered towards the most. Democracy.

@LogicMeister

Despite your moniker no, nobody who understands logic would say that. The vote was close and a very large chunk of the populace didn’t vote. I have seen arguments that abstaining on such a major issue should be considered a ‘yes’ vote, but others argue that abstainers just assumed such an obviously absurd question would be voted down.

And this is why my country has compulsory voting.

@LogicMeister Not Scotland: they voted to stay.

@LogicMeister No, 52% of those who voted wanted to leave. The turnout was 72%, approximately 33 million out of 46 million eligible voters. Which makes the actual leave result around 35%. Definitly not the majority of the UK.

The result should have never have been accepted in what was billed as an advisory referendum. Considering it was found afterwards that the Leave campaign was illegal, this should instantly have voided the result.

'@gandyg' That assumes that everyone who didn't vote wanted to stay

@LogicMeister If you wanted to leave so badly why wouldn't you vote?

The general feeling across the country was Remain would win, I reckon David Cameron only called the referendum as he genuinley believed that Remain would win. The Leave result was a suprise to most people.

Eh, EU is pretty shit. If they ever let Turkey join I'll vote for a Swexit cuz fuck that shit.

@Schweden Turkey has been trying to join the EU since 1987, the likelihood of Turkey joining the EU is as likely as India and Pakistan becoming allies.

'@DuckTalesFan96' It was more likely before Erdogan. Though ironically a lot of his terrible villainy was helped by the EU, if unintentionally.

@Schweden Well there is a racism.

I suspect the Brits who voted to leave will blame someone else as their economy tanks!

@Drachenfrau I think that's pretty much guaranteed, UK always had more freedom to do as they please than any other member, yet the complaints started pretty much the day after they joined EEC, despite the fact that their economy was a mess at the time & EEC was a way for them to improve their situation, they even started making bad decisions on their own & blaming the resulting mess on EEC/later EU, so why stop blaming all the problems of their own doing on EU now?

@Tsuhna
Yes we're made a hell of a lot of bad decisions but one was definitely to join the EEC in the 1st place given the economic damage that did. Which is a fact no matter how much the trolls wish to deny it. It cut us off from many of our traditional markets due to the deeply protectionists nature of the organisation. Even apart from the high subsidies paid as well, partially reduce by the rebate in the 80's there was also the large hidden one of consuming so much of the expensive EEC/EU food and hence allow the CAP to continue being so wasteful for so long.

So there are problems on both sides and unlikely too many on this board I'm willing to admit that rather than an idiotic attempt to claim its a simplistic binary situation.

@stevep59 By "traditional markets" I assume you mean former British colonies?

Sure, the EU isn't innocent in that regard, but the UK'S economic relationship with those places has basically been the grandfather of all protectionism. It just doesn't feel like that to you because the UK has been always been on the benefitting side of those trade "deals".

But in the 1960's it was foreseeable that this era had passed. The UK had lost the Suez Canal to Egypt and Kenya gained its independence in spite of Britain's brutal efforts to keep it under control. And most of all, India had gained its independence after WW2 and was rapidly regaining it's power, and regaining its sovereignty meant that it had been establishing trade relationships with partners that hadn't bullied it for centuries.

I mean, you can keep saying otherwise all you want, but it sure seems to me that the British Empire was a sinking boat and the EEC/EU was the life raft that kept the UK afloat.


Oh, and all the people who have responded to your claims that I have seen so far did so with well thought-out and carefully phrased arguments - you casually dismissing them as "trolls" doesn't reflect well on you.

@detrius

So your say "your mother is an ho" is a well thought-out and carefully phrased argument?

If you actually read my statements I've made no comments about the empire at all. I was referring to trade agreements with other powers, largely the dominions and Argentina, from which we used to get a lot of our foodstuffs from at much cheaper rates that the EEC [as it was then] replacements. Not cheaper because the relationship was exploitative in any way, simply because their better positioned to produce food cheaply and the EEC was burdened by the CAP, which was grossly inefficient. They were largely cut out of trade with Britain after we joined with strict quotas, which was a loss of important markets for them and an additional burden on Britain in terms of more expensive food.

There is one relationship with what you might call the colonial states, in that Britain used to get its banana's and possibly similar crops from its former Caribbean colonies. This was actually dear than other producers in central American but Britain did manage to continue giving them some preferential access to the British market for a couple of decades until the EEC - possibly EC or EU by then put a stop to it.

Your barking up the wrong tree with references to the empire. I'm not a supporter of people being held against their will in another state - not just when those people are my own. I recognise bad things happened in the British empire, as in others although Kenya is possibly not the best example for you to pick as the brutal "attempt to keep control" was to suppress a really brutal campaign of rape, torture and murder of civilians. There is evidence that British and loyalist forces did commit their own excesses, especially by 2020 standards but please don't take things out of contents. The Ma Mau were suppressed not because they were agitating for Kenyan independence but because they were murderous terrorist.

Ditto you could say with the Suez Canal. It was private property agreed by treaty which the Egyptian government seized without any compensation. Can you imagine what the response of the US government would have been at that same sort of date if Panama had tried to do something similar to the canal there?

The empire was pretty much dead by the time we joined the EEC but, contrary to the suggestions being put forward by the haters it was a non-issue. Britain had its own internal problems, some going back centuries and they made them worse twice in the 70's, 1st by joining the EEC which didn't fit in with Britain's more open trading culture and then by inflicting Thatcherism on the country from 79 onwards.

That is the key point I'm making. There are problems on both sides but the dishonest suggestion its all the fault of the "evil English" who are rabidly racists, imperialistic etc whereas Brussels has never done anything wrong is a flash representation of the facts. People often choose to hate rather than understand because hating is easy but it doesn't actually solve any problems.

I have often spent quite a while writing detailed explanations of my arguments and points and then get a lazy response, "your a troll" . Apart from one case a few months ago who gave references, but also kept lying about me, no one has actually tried to argue against my points. As such I have never dismissed anyone as a troll until their shown their earned that description,

@Drachenfrau There are British business moguls who are supporting and propagandizing Brexit, actively investing in the downfall of the UK. It's as close to treason as you can get.

The UK will pay for this stupidity, and soon!

@Drachenfrau They already have been for a couple of years.

@Carewolf that's only speculation based pain. It's about to be real completely irreparable pain.

@Carewolf

That depends on whether we continue to let the EU get its way or stand up to it. The appeasement of the past couple of years to the extremists in Brussels have done us no good at all.

@stevep59
What extremists?
What the hell are you on about?

More importantly, what are you on? Because it looks like your getting your hits from PragerU and Steven Crowder.

@Wuzzle2

How so EU. Random insults and lack of substance.

@stevep59
I'm not even from the EU you dumbass

@Wuzzle2

So? You follow their methods of idiotic abuse and insults and aversion to the truth so P.O.S.T.

@stevep59
That's because the right never argues in good faith. So why should I bother?

Y'all just try to look dominant or meme people away because you know that no sensible person who actually looks at facts, has basic critical thinking skills and/or thinks about the plights of others would ever support an ideology that's so intolerant and that benefits so few.

Besides, do you even know what the EU does? Or do you think it's just some secondary shadow government run by stuffy, unelected and out-of-touch politicians who make Bad Laws™?

Also, you never denied getting your info from PragerU and Steven Crowder so i'm just going to assume that's where you're getting your info from.

@Wuzzle2

Believe what lies you wish to. Bigoted fanatics like you always do as hating is easier than understanding.

You make two more errors. Thinking I'm even more rlght wing than you and assuming I'm defending the EU. [I don't want an idealogy as intolerant as the EU let alone you].

Also again you make assumptions because it suits you. I made a short reply to your 1st post because you made it perfectly clear you were an ignorant troll so there was no point trying to debate with you. Don't know what the else the sources you mentioned there so again your wrong. So I'll say it again, P,O,S.T

@stevep59
If i'm just a troll then why are you still feeding me?

Besides, you sound like a right winger and you're acting like a right winger so, P.O.S.T, whatever the hell that means.

@Drachenfrau Hopefully, now that the cord is cut, maybe the UK will cut back on the anti-Semitism and transphobia.

Maybe?

plz?

'@vero' It got the Transphobia from us, so probably not.

Antisemitism? Immigrant hate will probably stop the Muslim antisemitism but the far-right conservatives are happy to make up the difference, especially since they just 'defeated' enemy nationalities and have room to start in on enemy ethnicities and religions.

@vero

WTH? Are these your personal obsessions that you drag into every conversation?

@vero

Hopefully now we're out there will be a reduction in the EU biased bigotry given that we seem to do better than much of the continent on restraining such issues.