Equality means no mercy

"We are all doing fine economically and socially" Hahahahahahahah xD

@Finn123 bugger off you alt right asshole

@Finn123 you are such a troll bwhahaha.

@Finn123 @Zentalon @Namitsu
Swedes in denial: "T-this is neo-nazi p-propaganda!"
How doomed can a nation be to start defending the terrorists trying to overthrow them?

@v0ider you are fucking neonazi propaganda you alt right asshole. Just because someone has a problem doesn't mean your idea is a good one. The alt rights solution to terrorism is like pouring boiling water on your head to prevent lice. It might work a little, but it's going to do more harm than good. Plus, it's probably not going to do much good anyways.

@Baconcheesewheel And the left's solution is to pour even more lice on their head because they think the lice are peaceful and just want a home.

@v0ider https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=8iSscWiA87Q

@Baconcheesewheel Lol linking me to some backwater liberal talk show with a muslim spreading usual muslim lies and garbage

What's your point again?

@v0ider "usual Muslim lies and garbage" that Muslim is hosting the White House correspondents dinner. Also, how that fuck is it possible to be so rasism!?!?

@Baconcheesewheel

He's a little kid who thinks it's cool to act that way.
Either his parents are terrible people for teaching him this crap or they're at least crappy parents for leaving 4Chan and racists hate sites to baby-sit their kid.
Something apparently is horribly wrong in his life - a normal 14 yo in a civilized nation shouldn't be this messed up.

So even if he acts like an asshole we should try to remember he's just a kid and his parents obviously failed him terribly.
Let's hope he get's some guidance by proper grown-ups instead and just ignore him - I don't think it does either him or you any good arguing with him since I think his postings here is basically just a cry for the attention he isn't getting from his parents.

@Nisse_Hult http://i.4cdn.org/b/1492028024892.jpg
haha i see you everywhere here and you're the definition of a muslim apologist
first step to solving a problem is admitting it exists, lil buddy

@v0ider

"Muslims" doesn't need any "apologists" because "Muslims" as a groups has done nothing to apologize for.
Just as Jews, Homosexuals, Trangender people and any other group the far-right hatemonger's against hasn't.

Only idiots and conspiracy-nuts believe that any such group is as a group responsible for anything.
Sane and decent people knows the difference between individuals who are responsible for every action they take and groups which are not universally responsible for anything as no group is a monolith but made up of a lot of individuals that act independently.

And you actually know that too - you're just using a double standard against everyone you don't conceive of as part of "your" group.

Because you don't think you and all other white, Christian Americans are responsible for every crime committed by other white, Christians Americans - of course.

Only "others" are in your mind collectively responsible for any action anyone you consider part of the same group commit.

@Nisse_Hult Obviously individual people have their own thoughts. But when a large majority of a group shares the same opinion is when I start focusing on the group and not the individual. Like how the majority of muslims in the world are pro-sharia.

@v0ider

Considering Sharia basically just means "law" it's not really surprising a majority of Muslims support that concept.

Or as Wikipedias entry on Sharia puts it:

"For many Muslims, the word means simply "justice", and they will consider any law that promotes justice and social welfare to conform to sharia."

What you fail to understand (or don't want to understand) is that there isn't one single version of Sharia - just like there isn't one single set of laws in the western world.

When you think of Sharia you only think of the extreme things we westerners find abhorrent - not all the things that are basically the same as our laws.

And Muslims saying they support the concept of Sharia law isn't the same as they all supporting stoning or anything else that MAY be part of some versions of Sharia law.

Just as when we westerners say we support the concept of law, it doesn't mean we all support the death penalty. Some people do - others don't.

Being right-wing and American I would guess you do but I can tell you that most western countries actually don't have the death penalty anymore since it's considered barbaric and not worthy of a modern nation.

@Nisse_Hult Sharia: A system in which Islam's teachings are placed as the law
Also the system your country will be using by 2030.

@v0ider

No, that's not what Sharia law means - the meaning is clearly more fluent then that.

Some Islamic fundamentalists would like your description to be the case and far-right fundamentalists like you also like to pretend that's the case - but that doesn't make it the case.

Your both fundamentalist camps constitutes a few percent of the worlds population so you don't get to decide that.

No, the legal system of Sweden certainly won't be based on Sharia law in 13 years. But I hope you remember that you believed that when we get there so you get to see your hopes crushed.

Sweden's been around a lot longer that the US and we'll be here and doing just fine in 13 years too.

Unless Trump's managed to blow up the world before then of course. With his tiny little fingers on the button nobody can be entirely sure any of us will be here tomorrow.

@Baconcheesewheel There's a problem if I can't tell the difference between a backwater liberal talk show and the White House correspondents dinner.

I like this. It reminds me of the old comics, just the 3 Scandinavians going about and fucking with each other.

@MehMagicWhatever "Fucking with each other" You don't know how right you are. *eyebrow wiggle*

@PaxRomana
Lol no, it doesn't. If their presences didn't spike crime and terrorism by a significant amount, which it does, there'd be no widespread fearmongering of them. A very little amount of people would care.

And frankly I doubt that rphb gives a damn about people calling him racist for that, it's kinda like when creationists call you an idiot for knowing how evolution works.

Reality's tough.

And no, I'm not saying they're all anything. But what I am saying is the reality that more of them = more of crime, more danger of terrorism, and worse economy.

Just like a large influx of chinese people probably means that test scores are gonna go up.

@Finn123

"If their presences didn't spike crime and terrorism by a significant amount, which it does, there'd be no widespread fearmongering of them."

Ah yes - of course. The excuse of every hatemonger ever. Let's try that on some other groups that's experienced - and are still experiencing - massive amounts of hatemongering directed at them, shall we?

"If the presence of Jews didn't spike crime and the ritual killing of children for their blood sacrifices, which they do, there'd be no widespread fearmongering of them."

or

"If the presence of homosexuals didn't spike cases of pedophilia and the spread of AIDS, which they do, there'd be no widespread fearmongering against them."

To the hatemonger it's ALWAYS the victims fault that the hatemonger hates them - because the hatemonger of course want to believe he's a perfectly decent person that's only defending against the terrible crimes of his victim.
Hitler didn't wake up, look in the mirror and think "I'm a totally insane mass murderer!".
No - he thought he was the savior of the German people from the filthy Jewish world conspiracy and gassing children to death was just self-defense in his mind.

The problem is just that the hatemonger's can never ever prove that the groups he hates are actually, as a group, responsible for the crimes he accuses them of.

He can prove a number of individual crimes are committed by persons of that group - but so are all crimes so that doesn't prove anything.
Then he doesn't get any further and starts screaming at those that just won't take his words for it that the crimes he claims are tied to the group he hates.
Anyone not willing to believe the hatemonger is either an idiot for not believing, without actual proof, what he does - or they're fooled by the giant conspiracy that always tries to hide the truth.
Hatemonger's love their conspiracy-theory, because they explain why he can never actually prove his claims.

"Well of course Jews kill Christian children - but it's all covered up by the vast Jewish conspiracy that I unfortunately can't prove exist either, but if you don't believe me that's positive proof you're either an idiot, fooled by the conspiracy or part of it.
Because I KNOW that it's all real!"

Yep - Finn123's comment here is the epitome of every hatemonger ever - it's ALWAYS the victims fault. He just can't prove it because of the conspiracy.

@Nisse_Hult
Spare me your silly nonsense, I'm a busier person than you and don't have the time to textwall everytime. Besides, you never seem to learn anyway so it'd be a waste.

I've also literally linked you evidence of anything I say about migrant criminality or other things whenever we argue from real sources, including official swedish government statistics, something that YOU never do, yet you always ignore it and even dare to next time say I never provide any evidence. No wonder I don't bother arguing you anymore?

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you were a fake account that exists here to drive an agenda.

@Finn123 well I'm far busier than both of you, that's why it took me five hours to write something, here it is... You two seem to argue whenever you have a chance, is it a finn and swede feud of sorts?

@Namitsu

No, it's a democrat and fascist feud of sorts.

It'a a conflict playing out all over the western world at the moment - I'm kind of surpriced you don't recognize it from like any comment section anywhere?

At least the part being played by Finn123 - there seems to always be an angry young man demonizing immigrants and liberals in any comment section these days - no matter the actual subject.

@Nisse_Hult I just always see Finn123 possibly "trolling" people, and you are often there, the angry Finn and the reasoning swede

@Namitsu
Actually I avoid arguing with him because I have no time or energy for endless textwalls that don't benefit anything. If I feel like I wanna say something about something I'll just say it and try to not let it develop into a long winded argument.

It could be a finn vs swede feud, but I think in this case it's just because he seems to be the sort of person who thinks everything's racist or fascist and I'm sort of a conservative leaning type, so natural enemies?

@Nisse_Hult wow i just feel that i need to tell you that i have never disagreed with another person this much. You have such an extreme way of seeing the world.
And no i will not start a discussion with you, i do not seem to have the same amount of free time you do.

@Handsome

It's not in any way an "extreme way" to see the world to demand evidence before you accept the claim that an entire group of people are responsible for the actions of some individuals.
But the fact that you believe so and feel the need to state that you have never disagreed with anyone this much says a lot about you.

@Nisse_Hult I can live with that. I just had the urge to tell you. I'm a feminist, from sweden who dislikes most of the same things you do. But the reason i disagree with you so much, is because it seems like you really, really, really cant accept someone else's view. No matter how great their arguments is, you will just ignore them and keep on talking.

@Handsome

If you don't link to the post you answered to there is no way for me to know what you're even talking about when you bring up some old post like this.

You link by adding a ~ sign in front of the comments number.
Like ~9633317 for your last comment, the one I'm responding to now, for instance.

@Nisse_Hult well i've only answered to one of your comments.

@Handsome

That information doesn't help me in any way.
Because of the design of this site I still don't have a clue about what I wrote in the comment you answered to and before that in the thread.
And before I do I can't answer since I don't know what I'm answering.

@Nisse_Hult i feel that you said that as an insult. But honestly, that just helped my self esteem.

@Handsome

If you don't link to the comment you answer too on this site there is no practical way for any one you write to to know what you're talking about, since this site is rather badly contructed.

So it might give you a self esteem boost to write what you did, but I'll never have any idea what you're talking about.

It's like you speaking into your bedroom closet and then feeling good about it, really.

@Finn123 immigrants are less likely to comimt crime than native citizens.

@Zentalon Then why, in Finland at least, is the involvement of immigrants in sex offences disproportionately large?

@DarkMage7280 well it is at least true in the United States

@Zentalon why would you start citing US statistics when he was clearly talking about European immigration?

@Mickey

Finn123 isn't actually "clearly" defining what he's talking about at all above.

He has the unseemly habit of posting his answers to comments not in the common thread-structure but outside it so his ever comment just pop's up at the top of the comment section.
I guess he likes the attention.

Anyway that means non of us really know what he replied to in PaxRomana's comment.

All he say's is "If their presences" which could technically means anybody anywhere.
We can infer from his further comment that he's talking about immigrants - but not where in the world.

You may believe he talked specifically only about immigrants in Europe - I have to say I took him to mean immigrants generally.

But when people like him talk about immigrants they of course actually only mean dark-skinned, predominantly Muslim immigrants. I'm sure he doesn't have the same prejudices against any Americans immigrating to Finland for instance.

@Nisse_Hult It isn't about skin color, it's about culture. If e.g. Swedish culture was infested with Islamism like Arab culture is now, we would want to kick you out as well.

@Fortzon

You can tell yourself that but it's actually all about skin color.

Many other European far-right parties are racist against other Europeans as well - especially eastern Europeans like Poles and Slavic people.
SD in Sweden aren't (at least not officially) because their official stance it that it's based on religion and Europe is of course predominantly Christians of varying denominations.
The Judeo-Christian religions makes us all share a common enough culture that they're all fine in Sweden according to SD.

They thought that was a handy way for them to avoid saying they're against dark skinned people - the problem is just that there's actually a lot of Christians in the rest of the world too.
Including areas where they actually want to stop all people coming from.
So their own definition breaks down quickly if you just pose some follow up questions like:

But what about the Christian Assyrians in Syria - and you want to stop their immigration too?
The same for the Ethiopian Orthodox from Ethiopia and Eritrea for instance - about half of the population of those countries are actually Christians, but you still claim they as a group can't assimilate in Sweden?
What about all the Copts from all over the middle east - they're all Christian too and all of these peoples have actually been Christian for longer then we Swedes have?
How can they suddenly not count as Christians to you when they definitely are?

Then they start talking about some other undefined "cultural" issues - that for some unclear reasons means that SOME Christians aren't actually included in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
This lacks all merit in facts - but it conveniently means that all people with darker skin is suddenly excluded from that group..
But then it's no longer actually about religion or culture at all but place of birth - which is what they actually meant all along, but don't want to admit publicly.

@DarkMage7280 because I have a funny feeling Norway might be paying them too with all his cash

@Zentalon
That's just factually wrong (assuming you're talking of any western country, even though it's likely that the same is true for all countries), even without considering the fact that you just lumped regular immigrants in with illegal immigrants.


Also thanks for the other comment, it warmed my heart.

@Finn123
Immigrants have always been accused of being criminals. This also applies to the Finns who came to Sweden in the 1950s to the 1970s. So if it is true that immigrants are criminals and maybe Finland should take back its criminals.

@Suskiv
The Finnish immigrants back then came for jobs, but it is true that they commit somewhat more crimes than Swedes, nothing compared to migrants from hum..., 'certain regions' though.

And as far as I'm concerned we'd gladly take them back.

THANK YOU, THIS IS THE NICE HAPPY STUFF I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!

*laughs in money*

Otherwise, Have you already read this, condolences;
"Stockholm terror attack: At least 3 killed after truck plows into Swedish shopping center"
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/07/truck-plows-into-crowd-outside-swedish-shopping-area-report.html

"At least five people dead after stolen truck rams pedestrians in Stockholm shopping centre and 'three gunmen' open fire before police bundle a suspect to the ground"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4390436/Truck-rammed-group-pedestrians-Stockholm.html

"BREAKING: Sweden terror as truck RAMS into crowds in central Stockholm - three dead"
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/789184/stockholm-terror-attack-truck-drives-crowds-sweden

@finnhare
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/07/terror-in-sweden-truck-plows-into-pedestrians-in-a-deliberate-attack/

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/04/07/sweden-attack-truck-mows-pedestrians-stockholm/

@chaosgirl13

Another one that only reads right-wing "news" sites I see.

@Nisse_Hult comparing fox news and daily mail to breitbart and the blaze is silly. The first two are mostly legitimate news sites with partisan editorials, and the last two are propaganda. If you can't distinguish between the two, that might be a reflection of your own bias.

Anyways, I always see you on here defensively arguing with people about stuff and honestly you exemplify the delusional nature of mainstream Swedish group-think. My condolences for the attack on your capital, and I sincerely hope you and other Swedish intellectuals start looking at the world as it actually is, as opposed to how you wish it were.

Remember : SD wouldn't be shit if mainstream Sweden was willing to actually speak out loud about immigration. But you're not, so they get sole monopoly of the issue - to *everyone's* loss.

Feel free to respond, btw, but I doubt I'll be interested in going 20 responses deep with you like others have unless it seems like you're gonna be discussing something in good faith.

@Mickey

I don't know what nationality you are but you obviously don't know shit about the SD-party.

They where founded by neo-Nazi's and had actual old SS-volunteers as members and in the leadership of the party in the early years.

They would show up and wax lyrically about the good old days when they fought for Hitler to the adoring crowds of young neo-Nazi's.

They used to march around in uniforms and have book burnings back then - something that the party forbade in 1995, but it kept happening years after because the members loved that Nazi-stuff sooo much.

They of course where outspokenly antisemitic in those days and didn't really jump on the Muslim-hate-train until later when they chose to switch their main target. As neo-Nazi's they have to hate someone, but they're willing to officially change their target if they think it can help them politically.

They also hated gay's for a long time, until they realized that wasn't actually a vote-winner in liberal Sweden.

As a consequence the Swedish Jewish and HBQT-community don't want anything to do with them at all - despite the fact that they now love to pretend they're a defender of these groups against the evil Muslims.

As a consequence of all this - and the fact that their elected representatives keep getting caught making antisemitic, homophobic and obviously constant racist remarks - they're not even accepted by many other far-right groups in Europe.

They don't want to be smeared with SD's long and ongoing neo-Nazi history and no other party in Sweden will touch them with a ten foot pole.

So yes - SD would definitely be shit whatever anyone else did or didn't do.

People just chose to vote for a neo-Nazi party but since they don't want to admit that they claim SD isn't actually neo-Nazi.
But it is - it's just a matter of fact.

You can't stop people voting for what ever they chose of course and nobody's trying too.
The majority of Swede's just say that we'll never in a million years accept them as a serious party - because they aren't.

@Nisse_Hult

"So yes - SD would definitely be shit whatever anyone else did or didn't do."

I think you misunderstood. My english was too informal (just to be clear this is not an insult just an acknowledgement that I used idioms that some non-native readers might not catch)

by "SD wouldn't be shit [without the immigration monopoly]" I meant "SD wouldn't be a notable party [without the immigration monopoly]".

They would still exist, and they'd still be shitty people - but they would be a distant blip on the radar of Swedish politics. So much so that non-Swedes wouldn't even know they exist.

@Mickey

No worries - it's was a simply misunderstanding, no big deal.

Yes, in that you're right.

But it still doesn't excuse the fact that people vote for a neo-Nazi party.

I've said it for years - if you're actually JUST "concerned" by immigration policy (which is what basically everybody who votes for SD will ever admit to) - then don't vote for a f***ing neo-Nazi party that will never in a million year get anything done on that or any other issue anyway!

Because here's the deal:

Yes, there's a consensus in Swedish politics about the immigrations policy. That's not in any way, shape or form undemocratic as SD have been whining about for decades - it's just the fact that all other parties happen to agree on that issue. They're entitled to in a democracy.

If people are unhappy with that they could start a new party.

But people who whine about immigration are lazy and the vast majority of them can't actually be bothered to DO anything about it - especially not in a boring, democratic form.

Some of them are just fine throwing Molotov-cocktails at an asylum home or beating up some poor immigrant kid if they're at least four against one - but they can't be bothered to register a party and sit through endless meetings and formulate policy proposals on issues other then "get the immigrants out!".

So they vote for the only party that bothered to do that - and that happens to be a neo-Nazi one.

But they of course won't admit that they'd ever vote for fascism, so they refuse to accept that fact - no matter how many times the party shows what's really behind the facade they try to put up.

In that way it's exactly like Trump. Most of his voters aren't really hardcore neo-Nazis - they just voted for a man who brought those people along with him into office.

But they don't want to admit they did of course, so they refuse to accept what they really voted for.

Now the consequences of this in Sweden is that all the people that voted for SD has just thrown their votes away.

Because Sweden has a system of proportional representation that means that SD got it's just shy of 13% of the votes and that of course entitles them to exactly no influence at all - unless they can form a coalition with one or more other parties.

But since they're neo-Nazi's no one else will touch them with a ten foot pole, so their only hope of ever getting to power is gaining 50% of the vote - which will never happen.

The SD-party leadership has actually just made the situation worse by insisting they get to influence policy in any coalition. If they had been at all smart, they would have played the long game and just given up their support for free to the right (which are the one's they support anyway) for a number of years, without actually demanding very much.

That way they could have ingratiated themselves with the right and maybe hoped to wash of the Nazi-stench over time.

But no, after the last election they publicly proclaimed they would never again support the right if they didn't get to influence their policy's - and everyone of course knows that just means immigrations policy, since that's the only issue they actually care about.

The problem with this grand standing is that it makes it even harder for the right - some of whom would actually be OK with working with the neo-Nazis on some issues - to ever do that.

Because SD want them to publicly grovel for them, to treat them as a valued partner and an equal - at the same time as the party's elected officials are still spouting antisemitism, homophobia, racism and not one but several of their members of parliament are under criminal investigation for different things.

Now the leader of the largest right-wing party actually went out and tested the waters on this - pressed by low polling numbers and members of her party that don't care if they cooperate with Nazi's as long as they get into power.

The public response was that her party's poll numbers only plummeted even further and her coalition partners in the other right-wing parties all distanced themselves from that move.

Cooperating with or even saying you would be open to potentially cooperate with SD is a third rail in Swedish politics - as it should be, because this is still a neo-Nazi party we're talking about!

People pretend they've changed and they're not actually openly fascist anymore but the soundbites and internet posts from elected representative just keeps on coming.
There are massive amounts of people in the party that have absolutely NO idea what actually constitutes racism - that's why they keep messing up and have to try and claim the racist thing they just said wasn't actually racism at all.

And the party's platform still talks about a "inherent essence" common between "certain groups of people" that defines these people. This is just straight up biological racism in a fancier wording. The original Nazi's claimed it was all in the blood - the SD-party's official platform today says it's in this "inherent essence" - but it's just the same thing. To them a Swede is an Aryan and nothing else - it doesn't matter if you where born here.

Many Swede's - as most Europeans - take the Eurovision Song Contest fairly serious and when a Swedish artist named Loreen won a few years ago the SD-party's secretary tweeted out a single word in response to someone congratulating Sweden on the win - "Sweden?".

Because to him Loreen - who was born in Sweden and has lived her whole life here - can never be Swedish enough, because she has a slightly darker skin then him.

Most Swedes don't want that kind of despicable racists running our country and that's why SD is and remains anathema to most Swedes.

@Nisse_Hult

>> "it's just the fact that all other parties happen to agree on that issue. They're entitled to in a democracy."

This is a mostly-truth. Yes, the parties agree and yes they're entitled to do so - but in doing so they're also ignoring their constituents. Recent surveys show that immigration is a top-3 issue for over 40% of the population. That's a lot. There are a lot of voters in major parties whose concerns aren't being addressed by their party's platform. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place, and some of them have gone to the nazi-rock.

>> "if you're actually JUST "concerned" by immigration policy (which is what basically everybody who votes for SD will ever admit to) - then don't vote for a f***ing neo-Nazi party that will never in a million year get anything done on that or any other issue anyway!"

This is on the surface not a crazy thing to say, but you're not really giving people many options here. Either vote for a mainstream party that doesn't address one of their most important issues, or vote for a fringe party that does. For a voter, those are two bad choices. Giving people two bad choices is a great way to have bad things happen.

Well I guess there's the third option, which is more of a dismissal than an option :

>> "If people are unhappy with that they could start a new party."

Much easier said than done, and I suspect you know that. You're not proposing an actual solution, you're telling people to - figuratively - fuck off. That kind of thinking is dangerous : people who feel ignored and powerless are unpredictable. The US is a good current example of precisely what I'm talking about. Insane shit like "build a wall!" happens when mainstream politicians ignore immigration for 2+ decades.

>> "SD got it's just shy of 13% of the votes and that of course entitles them to exactly no influence at all - unless they can form a coalition with one or more other parties."

13% is also the 3rd most popular party in the country. A Nazi party is the 3rd most popular in Sweden. Either your country is overrun with Nazis, or there's a *serious* problem with the representation they're getting from mainstream parties.

@Mickey

"This is a mostly-truth. Yes, the parties agree and yes they're entitled to do so - but in doing so they're also ignoring their constituents."

There is nothing "mostly-true" about it - it's just the truth, plain and simple.
No party has any obligation to represent any particular opinion - a party isn't more then what it's members agree it should be. Every party is a democratic organization where all members have a say and obviously the people that actually care enough about the issues to be politically active isn't interested in pushing for different policies.

What you're describing is instead voters that are not politically active who in polling say they view certain issues as important, but no party has any obligation to change it's policies based on that.

If that was the law no party's policies would make any sense as they would all promise everything and at the same time promise to abolish all taxes - because public polling show they're really unpopular!

"This is on the surface not a crazy thing to say, but you're not really giving people many options here. Either vote for a mainstream party that doesn't address one of their most important issues, or vote for a fringe party that does."

I didn't invent the rules for democracy but this is how they work.
Expecting people who are actually politically engaged to change their parties policies to better suit some voters on some issues who can't be bothered to get engaged is clearly the less democratic option here.

And more importantly - as the example of the major right-wing party shows - it's can be a disaster policy-wise as you may drive away more voters then you attract.

Because what you don't seem to think about is that immigration being an important issue for many voters doesn't mean they all want the SD-party policies in place.
The SD-party themselves of course claim that - but they also claim "everybody" "actually" support them but are just too terrified to admit that.

But the fact is that ALL other parties in Sweden repeatedly promised before the last election that they would never cooperate with or in any way let the SD-party influence policy in Sweden. And 87% of the voters voted for one of those other parties.

Now if people where actually so incredibly supportive of SD but terrified to admit it they could safely vote for them in the privacy of the voting booth and not tell a soul. But they didn't - because in the end they don't think SD's policies are that important.

In fact - out of the number of people who in polling cite immigration as a really important issue for them, a lot are probably people who want to defend Sweden's traditionally liberal immigrations stance and who would therefore NEVER vote for SD or any party that adopted such policies.

That people say a question is important to them in polling doesn't mean they all agree with SD you know. It could also mean the direct opposite.

Also it's quite possible that some people do feel that immigration should be reduced - but they would still never dream of voting for a neo-Nazi party to achieve that.
I.E that the SD-party's baggage and still current stream of openly racist and other statements makes them an impossible choice for people who could possibly vote for a more normal party that had a tougher stance on immigration.

But even if that was the case you still can't democratically argue that any party has an obligation to provide these policies as a party is still only made up of it's members combined wishes.
Are those wishes less important then the possible wishes expressed by non-members in public polling? Of course not.

"Much easier said than done, and I suspect you know that. You're not proposing an actual solution, you're telling people to - figuratively - fuck off."

Again - this is how democracy works.
You have the right to express yourself, to get engaged politically in a party and influence it or start a new party if you want.
But democracy doesn't give you a right to demand that anyone start a party that cater to your wishes - that's simply a misunderstanding of what democracy is.

If people can't be bothered to engage themselves then clearly they don't deserve to be represented.
Which is basically what happens now anyway when they waste their vote on a party that's so awful no one else will have anything to do with them.

And everyone actually seems happy with that.

SD-voters get's to whine about how they're being treated undemocratically when they aren't.
SD's representatives in parliament doesn't have to do shit but get a nice fat pay check - and they get absolutely no criticism from their own members, despite the fact that they haven't got shit done - because they all just blame every other party for being mean to them for not giving them everything they demand.

In a normal party a party leadership that acted like SD's did - that blew any chance of cooperation by stating public demands directly after the election - would be questioned by it's own members and voters.
But SD's leadership has the same luxury as Trump - since both type of voters view their representative as the honest truthsayer they never question anything they do.
They're golden and can do no wrong - which means that there is never an incentive for them to get things right either, because they will always get the adoration and support of their devoted followers what ever they do.

SD even more so then Trump actually, since they're not in power. If Trump messes up to much for too long even his voters will sour on him, because it will have real life consequences for them.

While SD can just while away it's time in parliament, lifting their pay checks and doing squat since it's always everybody else's fault they can't find someone to cooperate with - according to both them and their voters.

And in the meantime every single party in Sweden has already shifted it immigration policy because of the massive wave of refugees that came in 2015 - after the latest election.

The interesting thing there is that SD have of course since it's founding for decades screamed about "mass immigration" and that Sweden couldn't possibly cope with all these refugees and so on.
When no other party agreed with them they turned to conspiracy theory - all other parties where actually acting in unison to destroy Sweden. They weren't just ignorant - they where down-right evil and out to destroy life as we know it and that's why the massive conspiracy covered up all the proof of how Sweden was being destroyed by immigration - which all the other parties knew but wanted to happen, for some unclear reason.

Well, that went on for decades until 2015 when the flow of refugees actually increased tremendously - and for the first time ever civil authorities actually reported that no, this is to much - we actually can't handle all these people at the same time.

And what did all those parties, that SD claimed had been out to destroy Sweden with mass immigration for the past decades do when their goal finally seemed to be at hand?

They all agreed - every single party - that OK, if the civil authorities say we can't do this in an orderly fashion, then we have to stop.

So they did. They instituted pass port checks and stemmed the flow of immigrant who are now just a trickle of what it was then - proving that SD had of course been crying wolf the whole time.

And none of this had anything to do with SD who was completely powerless in all these discussions as they are not part of either the government or the right-wing opposition.

This decision - that no doubt suited many SD-voters - was not a result of their votes in any way but a rational decision made based on actual facts and not owerblown scare-rhetoric.

Which just proves that Sweden works just fine without SD who doesn't really contribute to the discussion any way since their policy proposals aren't based on reality but fantasy.

It doesn't matter if Sweden takes in 10,000 or 100.000 or 10 refugees a year - to SD it will still always be "mass immigration" - because they don't want a single dark skinned immigrant, ever.

But the other parties know the difference and can make adequate decisions made on the actual facts.

"13% is also the 3rd most popular party in the country. A Nazi party is the 3rd most popular in Sweden. Either your country is overrun with Nazis, or there's a *serious* problem with the representation they're getting from mainstream parties."

As I said - most people voting for them aren't actually hard-core Nazi's of course. But it's a general theme in most of the western world right now - people are enchanted by fascist ideas again, because a new generation has emerged that doesn't realize that they're actually fascist ideas.

Also neo-liberalism has meant that the major parties of the political left all over the world since the 70's has basically become a slightly softer version of the right. There are hardly any true leftist parties left and societies have been transformed along neo-liberal lines which have meant that ordinary people have gotten less and the rich have gotten more.

That breeds resentment and when Nazi's shows up and blames everything on the immigrant it's a easy leap to make - especially when the political left isn't willing to point out that "no, actually you just have less now because we gave it away to these rich guys..." - since that's not something the like to admit they did.

Because officially the major Social democratic parties of Europe still pretend they're working for the ordinary citizen - and they still do of course, to a larger extent at least then the right-wing parties.
But the time when they actually cared deeply for building a more equal society for all are actually gone.

Now they're more about defending a fig leaf of caring for the working class while trying to beat the political right on who can deregulate the economy the most to please the big corporations.

The major leftist parties have simply been taking their core voters for granted for too long and gone to far to the right on economical issues.

But Sweden or the US could turn North Korea and shut our borders completely to every single immigrant coming and that still wouldn't make a shit of a difference in the lives of the people voting for tougher immigration policies.
The money didn't go to immigrants - it went to the richest amongst our own population and the big corporations, who have both increases their share of income tremendously over the last decades while most people have been left with very modest or no increases at all.

@Nisse_Hult you write too much. I mean honestly this is completely excessive - there's no way you need to pump out 5 pages to express yourself on this topic.

>> "you still can't democratically argue that any party has an obligation to provide these policies as a party is still only made up of it's members combined wishes."

You are literally contradicting yourself. A party is by definition made up of its members combined wishes, and some of those wishes aren't being addressed by the party. Ergo, the party is failing its members - plain and simple.

@Mickey

"You are literally contradicting yourself. A party is by definition made up of its members combined wishes, and some of those wishes aren't being addressed by the party. Ergo, the party is failing its members - plain and simple."

No I'm not.

First and most importantly - the vast majority of voters aren't actually MEMBERS of any party. They contribute nothing to the democratic processes within the party and as such have chosen not to influence that at all.

Either because they're happy with the party as it is or because they're too lazy to get active in the party. In either case they have made their choice and have to live with that - there is no point whining that someone else doesn't give you what you want when you have every opportunity to do it yourself but just chose not to do so.

Secondly - even when there are actual MEMBERS of parties that don't get their wishes "addressed" as you say that's always going to be the case and there is nothing problematic with that.
No party can cater to every single members every wish - that's impossible.

That's why every party has a democratic structure where members are free to argue for their opinions and seek support from others on the issues they feel the party should advance.

In the case of immigration policy it's obviously the case that there in no other party besides SD have been a large enough group of members that have pushed for tougher immigrations policies before the massive immigrant wave of 2015.

And when that wave came it wasn't like all our parties had to be forced by their members to change their stance either - the party leadership just reacted to the changing reality that our civil authorities for the first time said that they couldn't cope with the pressure put on the system.

That's because every other party in Sweden has always viewed the question of immigration from a perspective based on reality, whereas SD has based theirs on the fantasy of immigration destroying the nation.

When for the first time the number of refugees coming actually became so large it was no longer manageable all parties reacted to that reality and their members and voters neither had to push their leadership to do it or, for the most part, had any opposition to the changing policies.

There is no sign there are any real opposition between any other party or in any other party on this issue. Again the rest of Sweden - politically active people and regular voters alike - seem to be in unison on this issue with just the SD and their voters dissenting.

Which is fine - they get to dissent of course, but they're still a minority party that can't form a coalition with any other party so they won't get to influence policy making at all.

Which is just how democracy is meant to work.

SD's members and voters feel VERY strongly about their one issue - but there are simply not enough of them to claim power alone and they're not willing to compromise on that issue in any way to cooperate with any other party.

So they get to sit by themselves and sulk while life goes on without them.

@Nisse_Hult Again : you write way too much. This is honestly the most excessive shit I've ever seen in what's probably years of talking with people online. Assuming you're interested in actually communicating with others, it's in your interest to learn to express yourself with more brevity.

You're making a lot of circular excuses for parties ignoring their voters : voters aren't "members" of a party, they only "vote" for a party, they don't deserve to have their wishes heard for x y or z reason, etc. You also keep repeating "this is democracy", when what you're actually describing are technicalities of parliamentary democracy as it's implemented in Sweden. Lots of excuses and not a single solution.

Meanwhile, recent opinion polls indicate SD has even more support then they did last election, closing in on 20%. Again : a Nazi party has the 3rd most votes, and based on opinion polls is the SECOND MOST POPULAR IN THE COUNTRY. Your response, and that of Swedish intellectuals is to bury your head in the sand and pretend this is something you can ignore. Good luck with that Ostrich strategy, I can guarantee it won't lead anywhere good.

Anyhow, I'm out. It's pretty clear this discussion has reached its logical conclusion.

@Mickey

You're obviously upset that democracy works like it does but I can't do much about that - and I don't want to either.

What you see as a bug is actually a feature of democracy.
As I said - there as simply not enough people that support SD's agenda for them to get into power by themselves and they're not willing to compromise in any way so this is their choice.

They've chosen to not have any political influence at all, but to stay ideologically pure - expecting everyone else to come to them. So far that strategy hasen't worked - only time can tell if it ever will.

Opinion polling is not really important - it's the election results that counts and we'll get to see those and deal with them a year and a half from now.

As I said the realities in Sweden have already changed anyway since the last election, because of the massive refugee wave of 2015, so it's really hard to see what SD expect to be doing differently.

Sweden has - like all western nations - signed on to several universal agreements that we can't simply rip up. People have a right to seek asylum that can't be universally rescinded unless you want to end up a pariah in the world like Trump and I don't think most Swedes will think that's a very good idea for us to emulate.

SD's supporters might - but as I've said there's not enough of them to get to decide that.

And if they ever get to the point they get to answer for the consequences if they do.

In the mean time I fully understand if the other parties are reluctant to institute policies they don't themselves belive in simply to please SD or their voters - and as I said none of them has any responsibility to do so.

You obviously disagree, but your reasoning here is not based on fact but on your personal opinion.

@Nisse_Hult You're still confusing "democracy" with "sweden's parliamentary democratic system". It's ironic that you're so adamant that your opinion is "fact based" when it's clearly based in emotion and group think. Sorry.

@Mickey

Well we are discussing the Swedish SD-party's situation in Sweden so it's rather pointless not talking about the system we actually have.

All I'm describing to you is how the actual situation is in Sweden - it's all fact based.
You don't like those facts obviously, but that's not really an argument against them and it certainly doesn't make them any less true.

You still haven't answered my question about where you're from so I have no idea how much you actually know about Sweden's parliamentary democratic system but I (and many others) would say it's more democratic then the non-representative democratic systems of the US and the UK.

If we had one of those systems - which are still called democratic - SD wouldn't have any representation at all.

Now they have precisely what their share of the vote was - just shy of 13%.

But since 13% isn't a majority and they refuse to compromise with anyone else they get 0% influence.

Just like it's meant to work.

@Nisse_Hult so, I've made my position on this very clear : the system is flawed as it doesn't represent the wishes of the voters adequately. you repeating "this is how the system is and that's how it is so that's that" is very weird in context.

It's a bit like someone arguing against Trump's policies and in response being told "Well he's president and that's just how it is!"

Honestly - if you think everything's cool and perfect then power to you. I completely disagree but if you're not willing to move past just *describing the system as it literally exists* is not helpful or in any way conducive to a discussion. I have no idea what you think is going on here, but from my POV it's you literally talking to yourself. This happens all the damn time with you on this "forum", and I guess it's my fault for engaging. Should have known better.

@Mickey

You're doing exactly the same. The difference is I'm telling you how the system works and you're complaining that it works that way.

I think you should just accept the fact that SD simply doesn't have enough popular support and the party itself can't find a willing partner to cooperate with to gain influence through a coalition.
This is democracy - you don't always get what you want.

But you refuse to accept that and instead complains that the other parties should have a responsibility to push for SD's policies as well - which simply isn't true of course.

And it's obvious you're only doing that because you really want to see SD's policies get more influence.

That they have all the influence they are entitled to in a democratic system, because they and their supporters aren't more numerous then they are and that they aren't interested in cooperating with anyone else doesn't really bother you.

But unless you want to get rid of democracy all together you have to accept that this is often going to happen to the party and the policies you like the most - they won't be in power and the policies won't be in place.

You want to portray the system as undemocratic and flawed just because the political situation in Sweden isn't the one you would have wanted, but there's nothing wrong with the system at all - it's just that SD lacks the popular support to gain any influence.

And also, as I said, the fact that the SD-party's leadership are acting like idiots in our party politics - stating impossible demands to other parties and so on.

So no - I don't think we're getting much further in this discussion.

I'm talking about the system as it is and has been since we gained democracy, and you're only interested in how SD and it's policies could get more influence then they currently have by complaining about this system.

But there's nothing wrong with the system - you just don't like the outcome in this case.
That's all.

@Nisse_Hult "unless you want to get rid of democracy" - talk about a broken record in every sense of the word

@Mickey

I'm simply restating how the democratic system in Sweden works.
You're not happy with that since it doesn't produce the outcome you would wish - but that's not really a serious argument against it.
It's just partisan whining because you don't get to see your wishes come true.

Your proposals all go against fundamental democratic values - you just don't see or care about that since you only interest here is clearly seeing the personal opinions you hold gain more influence.
But it's still a fact that people who share your opinions on immigrations are in the minority in Sweden and as such they shouldn't actually have more influence then they have.

Unless, like I said, you want to get rid of democracy and force your minority opinions on the majority.

Otherwise you get to accept the democratic rules we have and do a better job of either attracting supporters to your cause until you reach 50% of the vote in a national election, or your politicians will have to do a better job of negotiating with other parties to form a coalition.

That's just the rules of Swedish democracy.

@chaosgirl13 Breitbart has been confirmed as tied to the Alt-Right. The Alt-Right has been confirmed as a movement tied to racial supremacism . AP Guidelines: https://blog.ap.org/behind-the-news/writing-about-the-alt-right

Usage (quoted):

"'Alt-right' (quotation marks, hyphen and lower case) may be used in quotes or modified as in the 'self-described' or 'so-called alt-right' in stories discussing what the movement says about itself."

"Avoid using the term generically and without definition, however, because it is not well known and the term may exist primarily as a public-relations device to make its supporters’ actual beliefs less clear and more acceptable to a broader audience. In the past we have called such beliefs racist, neo-Nazi or white supremacist."

In an interview with Sarah Posner, ""We're the platform for the alt-right," Bannon told me proudly when I interviewed him at the Republican National Convention (RNC) in July. Though disavowed by every other major conservative news outlet, the alt-right has been Bannon's target audience ever since he took over Breitbart News from its late founder, Andrew Breitbart, four years ago."

...please be aware of this when quoting Breitbart as a source. It is not reliable.

@finnhare

The fact that all you links go to right-wing websites shows perfectly what kind of person you are.

I understand you're overjoyed at what might be - but hasn't yet been confirmed as - a terror attack, because you hope it's one or more Muslims who did what ever this was but I would just remind you of this:

The last time this happened it was Norway and the terrorist turned out to be a neo-Nazi who supported the Swedish neo-Nazi SD-party killing 77 people - mostly children.
The far-right was overjoyed until they realized it was one of their own that was the terrorist.
So you might not want to celebrate just yet.

@Nisse_Hult Expressen and Aftonbladet are at least trusty newspapers;
"Sverige har drabbats av en förmodad terrorattack."
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/stockholm/lastbil-har-kort-in-i-folkmassa-i-stockholm/

– Sverige har blivit attackerat. Allt tyder på ett terrodåd, säger statsminister Stefan Löfven.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/M04XE/fordon-kor-pa-drottninggatan-bil-kor-pa-folk

By the way, you are right.
Anders Breivik was and is 100% crazy person, no one can defend him.

@finnhare

Well, they're both tabloids and tabloids are not really high quality newspapers - but they're still better then the links you stated out with.

Notice that they unlike your original links don't actually claim this to be a terror attack, but an "apparent terror attack". They might be tabloids but they don't have the American and British far-right agenda of smearing Muslims as much as possible.

Now it's not exactly sure what happened still - but you can see they're clearly besides themselves of excitement over what they hope will prove all their Muslim fear- and hatemongering right.

But even IF this turns out to have been an terror attack perpetrated by one or more Muslims it will still never in a million years prove them right.

Because terror or violence is still not connected to a skin color, religion, a place of birth or any such thing. It's still is and always will be the simple fact that f***ed up people commit violence against others for any number of f***ed up reasons and there are f***ed up people all over the world.

Last time it happened in Sweden it was a neo-Nazi that killed some kids in a school simply because they where immigrants but it's not like the neo-Nazi SD-party thought that said anything particular about all Swedes.

Oh no - when a white Christians commits mass murder he's always just insane and not representative of anyone else.
Only when a Muslim commits mass murder it's a sure proof how every single Muslim is a potential mass murderer in the eyes of the far-right.

EDIT since you edited your comment:

"By the way, you are right.
Anders Breivik was and is 100% crazy person, no one can defend him. "

Oh don't even pretend I've ever said Breivik is crazy because he isn't at all - not in the medical sense of the word.

He's just a committed neo-Nazi that practiced what sooooo many other online are preaching.

He's not mentally unstable or sick - he just follows a very, very sick ideology that preaches that the nation must defend itself from immigrants - even by killing children if need be. Because those children are a greater threat to the nation in the eyes of the neo-Nazis then the mass murder of them.

And he's not alone - there have been a string of these murdered or mass murders being committed by neo-Nazi's/fascists/far-right people all over the western world.
The last type of terror attack we had in Sweden was another one of those that walked into a school and killed some children just because they where immigrants.

To them they're just "defending their nation" from the terrible threat of people with darker skin - it's all perfectly in accordance with their ideological beliefs.

@Nisse_Hult You are right again. The world is not fair place to live. Think what would been happened if Breivik would had been immigrant and muslim???? Common opinions would be today very different in Norden.

@finnhare

Yes, we all understand you where SOOO disappointed he wasn't a Muslim.

You've been hoping for a major terror attack perpetrated by Muslim to occur in Sweden for years now - that's what's making your posts here so revolting.

You're basically creaming in your pants of joy over people being killed because you hope it will all prove your f***ed up, hate-filled world view right.

@Nisse_Hult if todays event would had happened in Finland , i would act just like today, it has nothing to do with the country. I have relatives in Stockholm and for example my own big sister has lived there over 30-years, so I dont have anything against Sweden. If someone publish a new scientific research, I shall put the link and if i see some intresting news then I put the link to that news. Research and news are good to publish that people can decide what they believe and what they think about some news. Very rarely there is only one absolut truth (expect some undisputed scientific researsh). I think that the purpose of the press is to bring lot of information available to the people and everyones own responsibility is to form own opinions. I dont hate the world and I dont hate the muslims. I have couple of Turkish friends in Finland and we have never had any problems because they are Muslims and I am Christian. Religion does not make people different. As i said " the world is not fair place to live"

@finnhare

I'm sure you'd be overjoyed by any terror attack perpetrated by Muslims anywhere as you think that validates the far-rights hatemongering against them.

It's not really hard to understand where you come from when you post three links - all from right-wing websites - within an hour of the attack.

I might add that technically the Swedish police still hasn't ruled this to be a terror attack, but it looks highly probable now.

The links you posted are how ever filled with sensationalist "reporting" about something they didn't actually know shit about when they wrote it. They where just hoping for an attack to "prove" their hatemongering right.

But as I said any terror attack - even if it's committed by one or more Muslim - will never prove the hatemonger's right in their claim that ALL or at least the majority of all Muslims are dangerous or support terrorism or anything like that.

Because that simply not true at all.

"Research and news are good to publish that people can decide what they believe and what they think about some news."

The problem is the links you posted are neither research or news - it's sensationalist speculation only aimed at projecting these sites political perspective.
They don't give a shit about truth or fact - they just want to convince their audience of their own agenda and they select which "news" they write about and in what way to achieve that.
They are not serious news sources at all and linking to them only shows you obviously don't get your "news" from serious sources.

@Nisse_Hult Do you really think that : Expressen, Aftonbladet, Foxnews and Dailymail are "right-wing websites" ???

"Comparing fox news and daily mail to breitbart and the blaze is silly. The first two are mostly legitimate news sites "

"Expressen and Aftonbladet are at least trusty newspapers;
"Sverige har drabbats av en förmodad terrorattack."
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/stockholm/lastbil-har-kort-in-i-folkmassa-i-stockholm/

"– Sverige har blivit attackerat. Allt tyder på ett terrodåd, säger statsminister Stefan Löfven."
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/M04XE/fordon-kor-pa-drottninggatan-bil-kor-pa-folk

This case was really big news in Finland. I was watching TV when suddently started special report "there has been terror attack in Stockholm" and Swedish Prime Minister Stevan Löfven was in TV and sad that it seems to be terror attack. News in Aftonbladet and news in Expressen and Swedish Prime minister in TV sad "it seem to be terror attack" . What do you think that people think about this case in Finland ?

@finnhare

Fox News and Daily Mail are definitely both right wing - and my comment was about them and the link to the Daily Express you first posted - all of them right-wing.

Then, when I pointed that out, you added Swedish Expressen and Aftonbladet and as I said then and you do now - even if they are tabloids as well, they didn't call this a terror attack at that time, but talked about "apparent terror attack".

I'm sure it was big news in Finland but if your TV actually said "there has been (a) terror attack in Stockholm" at that time yesterday, they were actually speaking to soon as no confirmation had actually come in at that time yet.

And the links you posted doesn't only state that as a fact - even though that wasn't establishes at that time - The Daily Mail both then and still today report the completely false claim that: "Up to three men were seen leaping from the lorry and opening fire on officers and pedestrians at around 3pm".

This isn't true at all - it never happened and is completely fake news!

Sweden's largest newspaper Dagens Nyheter today has a run-down of some of all the fake and doctored news that are being spread on right-wing hate sites about this attack and this is listed as one of those "news".

There have also been fabricated footage where a woman in hijab is pictured as walking amongst the dead in Stockholm, seemingly undisturbed by the carnage.
That footage is actually from the attack in Westminster in London some time ago and the photographer that actually took those pictures have reported that the woman was in chock.

Another example is that some right-winger has taken a still shot from an interview on Swedish television with a priest and superimposed a fake quote attributed to the priest as "We have to be able to forgive these terrible things" - but the priest never said that in the interview.
That "news" was spread on twitter by the party secretary of our neo-Nazi SD-party as well.

http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/sa-utnyttjas-attacken-i-stockholm-for-att-sprida-propaganda-i-sociala-medier/

There are more examples in the article above and these are just the tip of the iceberg - they're lying their asses of on many right-wing websites right now, trying to make the most out of this tragic attack.

"Comparing fox news and daily mail to breitbart and the blaze is silly. The first two are mostly legitimate news sites"

That's a quote from the account "Mickey" here. He's stating his opinion - that's not in any way a fact.
Fox News lies all the time - anyone who bothered to check on them knows that's their entire business model. Right-wing partisan "news" for a right-wing American public.
That's why studies show Fox News viewers are actually less well informed then people that don't watch news at all:

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-watching-fox-news-makes-you-less-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

And Daily Mail is so bad that Wikipedias editors recently voted to ban them from use as sources on Wikipedia, because they're simply not a credible newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/08/wikipedia-bans-daily-mail-as-unreliable-source-for-website

So I stand by my previous comment - the sources you linked to are not credible news sources but partisan propaganda outlets for the political right.
And that you, within an hour of the attack posted those three links shows you're either completely unaware of this fact or know this and still push people to read them anyway.

@Nisse_Hult First I opened Aftonbladet and Expressen and then I tried to find some English news about this case. ( I have noticed that if I read some interesting news from Finnish newspapers it is good to read what also Swedish newspapers tells, because same news are often told little differently.)
So, Foxnews and Dailymail were one of the first newspaper who told something about this case, that was only reason why I put links to these newspapers, that's all.

By the way, earlier you told that some people in Sweden think that Loreen is not 100% Swedish because she looks little different that "Scandinavian blond women". There is also racism in Scandinavia which is based on the language and Finnish and also Sami people knows this very well. Finland was 700-years east part of Swedish Kingdom and Swedish was official language. If you wanted to succeed in life was Swedish language skills necessary and it was also better if you changed you name to Swedish. Finns know very well how does it feel when people are divided into two different groups and that's reason why "finlands svenska människor tycker att de är bättre folk i Finland"
Do you know, that even today Swedish speaking minority power is much bigger than number of Swedish speaking people in Finland. Do you know, that couple years ago Swedish Party in Finland suggested that all the child should go to DNA test for race specification because Swedish blood can't be diluted too much. Do you know that in bilingual cities in Finland kindergartens all child are divided into two groups Swedish and Finnish speaking groups. Do you know, that if you are Swedish speaking is it easier to get to university to study than Finnish speaking , because starting places are reserved to Swedish speaking people more than as the number of Swedish speaking ratio should to be. So, I would say that Finns know very well what does mean word " racism."

"Språket som delar Finland"
https://www.svd.se/spraket-som-delar-finland

@finnhare

Nothing in your latest comment in any way address the thing I've consistently said - that the three links you originally posted are right-wing websites that pushes right-wing partisan propaganda and not real news.
Maybe we can now agree then that using them as sources was a bad idea and you'll refrain from doing so in the future?

If you're in need of an English language news source to read I can recommend The Guardian, which is a serious newspaper (it amongst other things broke the story about the existence of the US PRISM surveillance program) and it's one of the few that still doesn't use a paywall online:
https://www.theguardian.com/international

The New York Times is the most Pulitzer-prize (presented for excellence in journalism) awarded newspaper in the world, but behind a paywall. You do get a number of free articles a month though, so if you just check in there when something really important has happened, you can still access it:
https://www.nytimes.com/

The same goes for The Washington Post - the newspaper that broke the Watergate-story:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

All papers of excellent reputation and the highest quality.
There is no excuse for reading partisan propaganda like the Express, the Daily Mail of Fox News - you'll only end up less informed if you do since their goal isn't to fairly report the news but to sell you on their own agenda.

The rest of your last reply doesn't make much sense in the discussion we're having.

Yes, of course there are racists in Sweden to - that's why SD exists.
The SD party secretary who questioned Loreen's Swedishness also in an interview stated that Samis and Jews can't at the same time be Swedes - they have to chose if they're either Sami, Jewish or Swedish - because according to him they can't be both.

Now these clearly racist and anti-semitic views are actually very rare in Sweden today and I don't even think the majority of people who vote for the SD-party actually believes this.
But they still vote for and a support a party that is deeply racist and basically still neo-Nazi, as it started out.

Regarding the situation in Finland I can't really comment in any detail as I don't follow that as closely. I know there's a far-right party in Finland too and I know they are opposed to the Swedish language being thought in schools, but that's about it.

Finland has a large minority of native Swedish speakers and Swedish is one of your official languages, so this isn't a question that really has anything to do with Sweden anymore.
Finns will have to decide how they will settle matters in their own country and I don't think anyone in Sweden has a strong opinion on the subject either way.

@Nisse_Hult OK, Thanks, If I need English language news source I start to read The Guardian, The New York Times and The Washington Post. I promise that I don't use anymore "this kind of right-wing websites" . They were the first sites which wrote something about this case and of course next question should to be "think a little, why they were the first websites ?" You are right, I know that now, Sorry

By the way , yesterday there was local elections in Finland and The Finns Party (almost same than SD-party in Sweden) was the biggest loser.
Finns Party loses out as Greens rise in local elections;
"The populist Finns Party has seen its support drop in local elections on Sunday, with the party polling just 8.3 percent in initial results forecasts. That's well down on the 17.7 percent and the 12.3 percent it drew in the 2015 parliamentary election and the 2012 local elections respectively."

http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finns_party_loses_out_as_greens_rise_in_local_elections/9555861

I know that this Finlands language question is Finlands own problem and Finland have to try to solve it somehow. In Finland there is still quite a lot of Swedish rule constitutions and language question is one of them.

@finnhare

I'd recommend The Guardian for reglar use since that's free - on the other you'll soon hit the free number of articles a month if you visit to often.
I have to hold my self back when I do go there, because it's so easy to find another article that seems interesting and then you end up getting blocked for the rest of the month. :-(

I'm impressed you took what I said to heart and I'm sorry if I was to hard on you before, but the way you posted those links so soon after the attack really made the impression you where deliberately pushing a right-wing narrative and when you know some of the things those links claimed where actually not true at all I hope you understand why I didn't like that?

I had no idea there had been local elections in Finland, but thanks for the tip!
Interesting to see that the Finns Party lost ground. Now they're part of the government I gather and populist parties that get that far usually don't fare well as it's much harder to deliver everything they've promised then just promise things.

But still - interesting to know, and also only days after the terror attack in Stockholm. That probably worked in the party's favor as they're of course anti-immigrant - but still they went down at the polls.

@Nisse_Hult No problem, I would be idiot if I can't ever admit that I was wrong, nobody's perfect.

Elections;
Some partys for example National Coalition send SMS to their nominees immediately after Stocholm case "no one give any idiotic comments about Stockhom case, sympathy is OK but no more comments about Stockholm "
As you said Stockholm case was just as a gift for Finns Party , because timing was perfect only two days before voting day. Luckily they did not succeed

@finnhare

You're clearly not the person I first thought so I'm happy to say I have to admit I was wrong also!
Very happy indeed! :-)

Ok, that's interesting to hear. So what is this "National Coalition" - is that another party in Finland then?

Yes, that's interesting to see - that the Finnish people didn't react like one might have expected.
Interesting and very smart of them, because nothing does in fact change by an attack like this.

If it did the terrorists would win. That's the very point to always remeber with terrorists - their entire goal is to provoke a violant response that will play into their hands.
So by not overreacting you're actually defeating the terrorists because you're denying them the violent counter-reaction they where counting on.

Attacks like these can never ever defeat a nation - only an overreaction from the nation attacked could ever lead to that.

@Nisse_Hult
National Coalition (NCP) , Kokoomus same as Moderata Samlingspartiet 20,7%
SDP, Sosiaalidemokraatit same as Socialdemokratiska Arbeterparti 19,4%
CEN, Keskusta same as Centerpartiet 17,5%
GREENS, Vihreät same as Miljöpartiet De Gröna 12,4 %
FINNS , Perussuomalaiset same as Sverigedemokraatterna 8,8%
LEFT, Vasemmistoliitto same as Vänsterpartiet 8,8%
SPP, Ruotsalainen kansanpuolue på svenska det är Svenska Folkpartiet 4,9%
CD, Kristillisdemokraatit same as Kristdemokraterna 4,1%
It is funny to see that we have practically the same parties in Finland and in Sweden, well in Finland there is no more (earlier there was) liberalerna and of course there is no Svenska Folkpartiet in Sweden.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finns_party_loses_out_as_greens_rise_in_local_elections/9555861

You are right, we have to live just normal life otherwise we act just like all the terrorist wanted

@finnhare

OK, so the Finnish equivalent of Moderaterna sent out a text message warning it's representatives to not say anything else then offer condolences after the terror attack? Interesting. I wonder what they where afraid their representatives might say?

Yes, they're basically the same. But it's interesting Finland doesn't have a liberal party any more since our Swedish liberals did the second worst election in their entire history in the last election and are really struggling too.
But your SPP - Svenska Folkpartiet - is liberal, I guess? At least that - Folkpartiet - is what our liberals used to be called until they recently changed their name to Liberalerna recently. A name change that lead to more mockery then praise as one of the reasons they're doing so poorly is that they're basically not liberal anymore, but a minor version of Moderterna - our right-wing party.

Yes, we have to and as I said - there is no way any terrorist can actually seriously hurt our societies if we don't let them.
Of course ever single death is terrible, but a society is much stronger then that as long as it just carries on and doesn't loose it's own head.

Look at London - they've had terror in the form of the IRA, the Germans dropping bombs on them in two world wars and now Islamic terrorists and none of those have ever broken that city or nation.

"Keep calm and carry on" as the posters say - that's really all there is to it.

@Nisse_Hult Normally Finns Partys chairman Timo Soini has had to explain party members racist comments when common opinion requires it. Yes, I would say that Svenska Folkpartiet is liberal party.
If I understand right Swedish Liberal party and Svenska Folkpartiet in Finland has both something about 5% support.
By the way, Greens, Vihreät -De Gröna, chairman Ville Niinistö was married 8- years with Maria Wetterstrand who was Swedish Greens - De Gröna chairman. So, at least there has been close co-operation with Greens in Sweden and in Finland
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article14944753.ab

https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2017/04/10/se-kommunalvalets-viktigaste-kartor-har-har-makten-skiftat-har-ar-medelaldern

@finnhare

That's a large part of SD:s party leader Jimmie Åkessons job too - explaining why the racist things some SD politician just said isn't actually racist (if it was said by one of his close personal friends in the part leadership), or pretend he's upset and surprised that yet another SD politician said something racist - if it's someone else in the party.

They've instituted a "zero tolerance" policy against racism that only works on local politicians and other then Jimmies personal friends in the leadership.
People are kicked out of the party ever month if not more - but some have the protection of Åkesson whatever they say or do.
Either because he wants to keep them around or because they have dirt on him that they could hurt him with if he didn't always protect them - no one really knows.

Right now two of their members of parliament are subjects in two different criminal investigation and Åkessons mother-in-law has forced out of the party but refuse to leave her parliamentary seat since she get's well paid for doing absolutely nothing.

Yes, the Swedish Liberalerna is doing terribly right now. They've spent the last decade trying to portray themselves as the best party on education issues and their party leader was minister of education for 8 years in the right-wing government we had.

But every single indicator only shows that Sweden's schools have become worse during that time, so they don't have much creditability left.
They've also - like the other right-of-center-party Centern have gone far to the right politically during this time so they've made themselves pretty useless as a party since we already have Moderaterna.

As I think I said before - why vote for a clone of Moderaterna when we already have that party?

So they tried reclaiming their liberal heritage by renaming themselves to "Liberalerna" - but since they basically aren't liberal any longer it just look like a desperate marketing-scheme.

It also didn't help that they chose a new logo in the shape of an "L" for "Liberalerna" that just looks like a dick...

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/loggan-ska-aterspegla-partiets-politik

@Nisse_Hult ”Ett varmt och mjukt L” it looks funny
The Greens/Vihreät/De Gröna and the Swedish Party/Svenska folkpartiet /Ruotsalainen Kansanpuolue are probably the closest liberal in Finland and neither are very popular and liberalism is not their main agenda. If we believe "Nolan Chart" http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nolan_chart
I would say , that right now there is no clearly "economic liberal party" in Finland.

@finnhare

It's probably time to mount bollards, presumably removable ones, across all intersections, and along all sidewalks, everywhere.
Expensive, though, and ultimately futile. There is no limit to mans ingenuity, including his ingenuity to commit mayhem.

I remember when a car parking in a storefront just meant that it was time to take the keys from Grandma, and not a malicious act.

@SeanR you are right, we are living in quite a wicked world

@finnhare The current and recent history of Fox News: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Fox-News-Channel ...just don't use them as a source.

A good but sad measure of a source is: Did they ever lose journalists while covering a story? Were they so dedicated to the truth that this happened?

Also if they're founded by a media mogul with close ties to a political party.

@ruggs you are right, I already promised to "Nisse_Hult" that I dont use Fox-News anymore as a source.

Yeah, those no-go zones kind of suck.

@CaliforniaAmazon

It sure would if they existed but fortunately they don't - which has been pointed out by many Swedes here on many occasions before.

I myself lived in one of those claimed areas for 15 years up until 2 years ago and it's nothing like you hear described from the far-right.
Perfectly normal place - no one ever bothered me there.

@Nisse_Hult

The media has lied before. The Gulf of Tonkin never happened, McNamara who was Secretary of Defense for Kennedy and Johnson admitted that in 2004. They lied and said it did happen to get the U.S. Congress to expand the Vietnam War. In 1991, Iraqi soldiers were not hauling babies out of incubators. That also was a lie.. And Bush II lied when he said Saddam has Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Your media is lying to you, just like our media lied about Hillary Clinton's poll numbers and the assurance she would win the presidency.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4274292/Journalists-told-leave-Swedish-no-zone.html

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15006/feminists-sweden-flee-no-go-zones-overrun-islamic-joseph-curl

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-21/swedish-mainstream-media-hiding-full-picture-trump-right-about-immigrants

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-24/swedes-begin-construction-police-fortress-little-mogadishu

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-21/it-looks-war-zone-trump-vindicated-after-violent-riot-erupts-swedish-suburb

@CaliforniaAmazon

You can post any number of right-wing/far-right-wing/conspiracy-nut case-sources and chose to believe them - but as I said many Swedes with personal experience have already stated here that the lies come from the media you chose to believe.

I doubt you've ever been to Sweden and probably most of the "journalists" in those publications hasn't been either - but still they and you believe you know better then us Swedes what life is like in our own country?

The only people actually in Sweden that's pushing this narrative is supporters of our far-right neo-fascist SD-party that does everything they can to smear Sweden.
Like all fascists, while claiming to love their country, they actually hate what it actually is and only live to transform it along neo-fascist lines into the nation of their dreams.
They have been very active in feeding pure lies to their far-right brethren abroad for sure.

But you'd be hard pressed to find any Swede who isn't a far-right sympathizer, with any experience of these so-called "no go zones".

As I said I lived in one of them for 15 years and nada, zip, nothing happened to me there. It's a regular suburb that's socio-economically challenged with a lot of immigrant, but it's nothing like the war zone hellish descriptions your right-wing sources feed you descriptions of.

So maybe, before you tell me what the "truth" is about the country I've lived in my whole life and the area I've spent 15 years in, you should come see it for yourself - and not just trust a bunch of clearly biased right-wing sources?

@Nisse_Hult http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/swedens-interpol-most-wanted-hacked-six-pages-of-muslims/

@v0ider

I'll just quote the reply I gave CaliforniaAmazon since you didn't get it the first time:

"You can post any number of right-wing/far-right-wing/conspiracy-nut case-sources and chose to believe them - but as I said many Swedes with personal experience have already stated here that the lies come from the media you chose to believe."

To which you then posted a link to a right-wing conspiracy website. *facepalm*

Stop reading that shit - it's rotting your brain.

@Nisse_Hult Alright. Here in America dinosaurs live among us. However prehistoric marine reptiles led by the mosasaurus political party are trying to kill them all and nukes go off on a daily basis. I'm an American who lives there, see, that means I'm an eyewitness. That means what I just said is all correct and any site you link me to in an attempt to disprove me is just a mosasaurus conspiracy website. stop reading that by the way, it's rotting your brain.

@v0ider

I know more about both Sweden and America then you right now - which isn't surprising since I'm old enough to be your father and have both a higher education and have had a lot more time to read up on the facts then you have.

But - if you continue on your path of consuming right-wing propaganda you'll never catch up no matter how old you get, as numerous studies have shown that the people who consume that nonsense are actually less well informed even then those that don't consume any news at all.

That's because you're being feed pure propaganda which aim isn't to inform you of actual facts, but sell you on an "alternative facts" based worldview that will keep you voting republican.

So you're not just uninformed - you're misinformed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-watching-fox-news-makes-you-less-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-supporters-appear-to-be-misinformed-not-uninformed/

@Nisse_Hult Alright I'll go ahead and be spoon fed liberal propaganda like a good little sheep

@v0ider

You've got that completely backwards - which everyone except those in your little right-wing bubble knows.

The amount of outright lies and spin from the right-wing media, their hate-sites online and obviously your twitter troll in the White House is just insane.
I mean it's gotten so bad even some of Fox News own news anchors can't even ignore the lying anymore. And that's one of your own propaganda outlets!

But people like Chris Wallace and Shepard Smith knows that if they go along with the insane level of lies the Trump-administration is now pushing, soon no one will believe a word they say.
They'll be as useless as Kellyanne Conway and Sean Spicer that have been reduced to nothing more then bad jokes after just a few months of peddling Trump-lies.

Every single reputable news source in the western world have run countless articles and stories about the just insane level of lies emanating from the American right.
And yours and your cults problem is that you can't keep a movement together like that in the long run.
Your getting to a point where it's just North Korea-level ridiculous.

The rest of the world isn't uniformly liberal as you seem to believe. Fox News anchors certainly aren't, but when the lies become so obviously stupid and transparent that everyone can see through them the wheels are coming of the Trump-buss.

You can continue to believe anything you like of course, but there is no way refusing to accept basic reality will hold for four years.

@Nisse_Hult Well put. Very well put.

(Are you based in Stockholm? I've lived in Flemingsberg, Akalla [yes, yes, 1/10th of murders in Sweden are committed in the greater Järva Field area], Botkyrka and other "high-risk" areas, feeling perfectly safe. People tend, however, to believe the hype.)

@JJn

Yes, I live in Stockholm.

Well most of this isn't actually fueled by people who just believe a "hype" but people who for ideologically political reasons actively want to believe anything bad they hear about Sweden.
That's especially true for American right-wingers like v0ider here.

He doesn't know shit about Sweden except what his far-right hate sites told him and all they know is based on the fact that we've taken in a lot of immigrants and their mistaken belief that we're some sort of communist society.
So iaccording to their world view everything obviously must be totally shit in Sweden.

Swede's who spread this nonsense on basically fall into two categories:

Those that deliberately exaggerate any problems in Sweden and try to blame them on immigration, and those that read and hear that kind of exaggerations and doesn't know any better.

That last group are basically the only ones believing in any hype - the rest are ideologically motivated to spread any lie since they see it as an acceptable part of their ideological struggle against the evils of foreigners and the political left.

And of all these people virtually non have any own experience of living in these areas, of course.

But like I and others who actually have lived in these areas have said a number of times here on Satw - this is just complete bullshit.

Yes - there are problems in some areas of Sweden of course - just like in any nation.
But Swede's aren't being terrorized and there is no Sharia-law being enforced and all the other nonsense you hear repeated if you listen to the far-right.

And no area in Sweden has a murder-rate anywhere near major US cities, of course.

@CaliforniaAmazon Yes they probably are, fortunately we don't have them here in Sweden.

RIP Swedenistan

Hey when you get replies can you show us the comment that they commented on? It will help us see what to replie cause sometimes we need it a LOT!

@Baconcheesewheel you should bring this up in the feedback section.

@Baconcheesewheel #9621462 @ryttyr #9621548
It's been brought up there a while ago and it's on the list of things to do, but Dayvi only has so much time for coding on this website and there are a bunch of higher-prioritised backlog items... So it's gonna take a while from what I understand.

@Zeust okay. Thanks

@Zeust I know, I asked him. It's not top priority, but it's helpful.

All love for Britain, but I'm really hoping Scotland breaks free this time. Sometimes a country you're extremely closely tied to can't seem to help but make foolish decisions.

Repeatedly.

With no thoughts for the consequences.

....*stares south*

@Eirine http://i.imgur.com/Oy2XkG7.gif

@Eirine You elected Trudeau don't talk to us about foolish decisions lol

@v0ider your parents had you

@Baconcheesewheel Lol did I hurt your feelings with that one?