Two fools in a restaurant

Thank you so much for differentiating between Normal America, and Trump America. We really are doing everything we can to fix that mistake!

@TuxedoCartman I don't know that Mistake is the right way to put it here. Clearly some people don't think it's a mistake, so it would be better to say, not every one is in agreement about him.

@snowwolf It was not a mistake. It was the turd sandwich with the least turd. Dealing with trump as a president, dealing with histrionic theatrics from borderline loonies who can't get past "It was Hillary's turn! Cheater!" and "get trump" lynch mobs... well, there are plenty of people who still prefer it to the alternative...

On the positive side, I've been seeing a lot of liberal leaning people who are starting to realize that giving vast and sweeping power to one person is a Bad Idea. If Trump serves as nothing else, he may be an object lesson to a generation regarding limitation of powers and government.

@tomyironmane Well, I'd hope for more than that. Either way I'm not saying it was a mistake. It was a legal vote, that was done and what people wanted is what happened. There was no mistake.

@tomyironmane

I've even seen some people on the Left start saying there might be something to this whole "Second Amendment protects you from a tyranical government" idea after all.

Being in power makes you arrogant. It makes you prideful. It makes you think you are right BECAUSE you have power. Everyone benefits from losing power on a regular basis. It reminds you that, when you make rules, you need to make them so that they're fair no matter which side you are on.

Granted, the assholes in power on both sides still get to ignore most of them, but it's good for us schmucks who vote for those assholes to keep that stuff in mind, when deciding which asshole is less of an asshole.

@snowwolf Not everyone is in agreement over global warming or even that the Holocaust happened; doesn't change the fact that they're real. The Mango Mussolini is a mistake.

@TuxedoCartman you mean people voting? There is no mistakes made there unless you only like the rules if they go your way - which is just childish. But then I have seen very few behave as adults on the matter since the election, so I guess that is to be expected. Certainly would be nice if people could stop complaining each day, and get on with their lives until time for next election. But that is just me ...

@Tue
Could have been worse, we are only waking from apathy caused by 2012 elections. And think how could it get if Putin will win this time..! Country will be like an insect in amber - inanimate and probably dead on the inside. Ugh.

@Tue Trump lost the popular vote. The only reason Trump became president is because America still has its archaic electoral college system.

People will keep complaining about Trump while he keeps misbehaving. He engages in Twitter wars against people he doesn't like. He uses racial slurs regularly. He appoints his children to sensitive government posts they lack the experience or skills for in defiance of nepotism laws. He brags about assaulting women. None of these things are appropriate for an adult who isn't the president to be doing, so yes, people are going to keep complaining about him being unfit to be president as long as he's in office.

@Tue I think he meant the mistake of saying that Trump is representative of America in general.

@TuxedoCartman Careful there. I didn't vote for him either, but a lot of people did. They "might" be regretting it now, but that's besides the point. Like it or not, he got into the White House the same way every other POTUS has - via the ballot box.

That said, I agree: it's good to have the 'ole Brother America back (ironically, I actually didn't like that portrayal of America until this year).

@EndgameOnyx Every other President didn't have our intelligence services and justice department looking into and actually indicting people for collusion with a foreign power tampering with our elections.

@TuxedoCartman "Everything?" You mean rioting and calling for impeachment when he hasn't done anything remotely criminal? Or maybe accusing him of racism despite being praised for the exact opposite before deciding to run on the Republican ticket. Or accusing him of homophobia when he picked Richard Grenell, who's openly homosexual, as ambassador to Berlin. Or freaking out when he called Kim Jong-un's bluff. (You do know North Korea has been impotently threatening nuclear war long before Trump became president, right?) Or perhaps you mean the various written attacks on his wife, particularly those calling for her deportation despite her being a *legal* immigrant.

@Brigid Or maybe selectively overlooking the fascist things he's doing, and cherry-picking minority comments to straw man liberals. Not done anything remotely criminal... get out of here with that. (No, really, take your Cheeto Messiah, his stripper wife, and get out of OUR country. Nazis aren't welcome).

@TuxedoCartman SHIT! POLITICS! *runs off before the people get really pissed about it, if they haven't all ready*

British Comedy:
Waiter: Your soup, Sir
Guest: Thank you
Waiter: Will there be anything else?
Guest: Not for now thank you
*Waiter begins to walk off
Guest: Oh, Waiter!
Waiter: Yes?
Guest: There appears to be a fly in my soup
Waiter: A what?
Guest: a fly, there’s a fly right there in my soup
Waiter: Ah yes, so there is
Guest: Well? Why is there a fly in my soup?
Waiter: I don’t know sir, maybe it got lost on it’s way to the cantaloupes
Guest: What? Oh never mind, just fix it!
Waiter: Oh, of cause sir, would you like me to get you another?
Guest: YES!
*Waiter takes the plate and heads back to the kitchen
*Waiter returns with soup
Waiter: Your soup, Sir
Guest: Thank you
Waiter: Will there be anything else?
Guest: Not for now thank you
*Waiter begins to walk off
Guest: Oh, Waiter!
Waiter: Yes?
Guest: There now appears to be TWO flies in my soup!
Waiter: Yes?
Guest: Well? Why are there two flies in my soup?
Waiter: Well you told me to get you another

American Comedy:
Honestly I don’t watch enough American comedy and I’m far too caffeine deprived to write anything but the joke would properly be that the fly was secretly a bomb the whole time or that an American would order soup in the first place

@Uocjat lol.. Never seen this scrip before so funny...

@Zuperkrunch completely original piece brought to you by my sleep deprived brain with only half a cup of coffee in my system
though to be fair I wouldn't be surprised if there's a sketch out there very close to it

@Uocjat wow.. Surprise... u made it your self... U talented to write comedy sitcome Hahaha...

@Uocjat It sounds like a plate of soup with two dead flies and a dish of dead parrot... ;)

@Uocjat I only regret that I have but one upvote to give thee.

@Uocjat In an American comedy the waiter would set down the soup without saying anything, the customer would angrily complain that there was a fly in it and demand another, then the waiter would snap his fingers in a Z and say "Honey, you can't AFFORD another fly". Then the laugh track would run riot.

@Uocjat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8nl8eBoq0 i know its a kids show but its the first thing that came to mind

The waiter is played by John Cleese.

"It didn't feel right to use Trump America for this. It would have given it a different meaning than intended."

And that's why you should stop using the Trump America. Every other character tries to be the country as a whole, throughout the years. There's no reason that America should get this treatment. A lot of your comics age well because they're much more timeless. The whole Trump avatar thing will age badly, and it doesn't really add anything to many of the comics. It'd be one thing if you're explicitly mocking Trump (which I'm still against, I prefer when this comic is about the nations, not one particular leader at one particular point in time), but many of them it's either pointless, or can give a different intention than intended.

@Sines Wise words, my friend.

@Sines

It doesn't matter what you prefer. It's Humon's comic and she does as she pleases with it.
This has been explained ad nauseam to you people complaining about this already so your choices are to keep enjoying the free comics or you can always leave.
You or anyone does however not have the right to bitch about the free content you get not being to your liking - that's just rude and certainly won't win you any friends.

@Nisse_Hult Dude I've seen you do this before and your argument is... bad... nothing more complicated than that. People have a right to criticize a change they don't agree with. Does this mean that Humon has to change to fit everyone? nope she can flip us off and write BL for all she wants. However that does not mean that positive and negative feedback is back, it might give her an idea how a change is received by an audience, whether that audience is paying or not which really shouldn't be affected their credibility, and if she agrees with the sentiment she might change it.
I do not promote that people should mindlessly hate on stuff they disagree with but the original comment clearly just stated how he felt a change might or is negatively impacting his opinion towards the strip

@UnknownDane

Actually "dude" it's not a bad argument at all.
But as I said to SirKibbz below, you can prove me wrong by doing the thing you believe Sines have the right to ask of Humon:

Start producing a comic to my liking.

I won't be offering you any money or encouragement for this as I expect you to do it for free, but I'll give you plenty of bitching when your comics don't live up to my expectations.

When you're willing to do what you expect others to do your argument have merit, not before.

And if you go back and look at me having posted this argument before you'll also see that the exact same points Sines made have already been made, as I said, ad nauseam before and so has the arguments against them - among others mine.

This is simply repeating endless whining that tells Humon absolutely nothing new about what some of her viewers already think.

In fact, since Sinse posted his complaint you now have a number of others coming out of the woodwork's, repeating the same old whining yet again.

If anything, this experience might just as well give Humon the impression that it would have been better to just draw brother America as Trump in this comic as well, as that probably would have lead to less pointless bitching in the comment section.

Which would obviously be the direct opposite of what all these whiners want.
So it might actually be not only pointless but even worse then pointless for them to continue whining as it might stop Humon from ever again making an exception to her own previous decision.

@Nisse_Hult My only question is... why is the involvement of money an argument that makes whining or not whining legitimate. Anything that´s posted for everyone to read/watch is open to criticism. If the criticism isn´t just "OMG THIS IS STUPID GO KILL YOURSELF" then any creator aiming to improve or aiming to find out what kind of things attract positive attention and what doesn´t through the comments of people who like it (meaning what could be replicated in other comics) and people who dislike it (meaning what might not be good to use it the future if the author/artist finds fitting).

@UnknownDane

I answered the question about what paying or not paying has to do with this in another post that I guess you hadn't read when you posted this, as you replied to that post a minute after you posted this reply.
So I'll consider that question answered by that post.

Regarding your claim about legitimate constructive criticism I have already replied to that above by reminding you that nothing that's being said at this point by these whiners is in any way new to Humon.
They're not offering any new insights to her into how they feel - they're just repeatedly whining about the same thing over and over.
And you're now repeating the same arguments I've already replied to in defense of this whining - showing that neither they nor you respects what Humon and others have shown you or explicitly told you.

Humon has got the message - she just doesn't care what you think, now deal with it.

@Nisse_Hult Your mind work in mysterious ways, let´s just say it like that. What I don´t understand is you claiming I somehow disrespect Humon by saying I disagree with your approach to comments you dislike by claiming that they, in opposition to you, have no right to voice their opinions against a direction they agree or disagree with.

@UnknownDane

There's nothing mysterious about it - I'm just being civil.

Humon shares these comics for free because she's a kindly soul that likes to draw and has a humorous side and it brings her enjoyment to share that gift in comics with others.

To then endlessly repeat the same whining about a decision of hers to draw a certain character a certain way is clearly disrespectful.

You talked about friends in another post - go harp on a friend of yours about the same thing over and over and see how much he likes it.
He might like that sweater you hate and you might mention that once - but continue whining about that damn sweater forever and you'll soon have one less friend because no one needs an asshole like that around.

This is just common civility that people frankly should have learned growing up.

And on top of that question of basic civility, this is also a question of artistic freedom.

Humon, as the artist, has the right to draw whatever she damn well pleases.

A Dane like you SHOULD really understand that point after your country basically went to war with the whole Arab world over the right for some cartoonists to be as disrespectful to their prophet as they could.

But apparently it's important to defend Danish cartoonist right to draw Mohammed any way they like, but it's not important defend their right to draw anything else then?

Is that the lesson Danish society learned from that incident? Artists right to free speech is only important if it offends Muslims?

@Nisse_Hult logic: comparing an advice from a friend to a friend doesn´t work
comparing feedback on a comic strip to newspapers do... Thanks
Edit: Wait isn´t there a contradiction in your own statement there?
"Humon, as the artist, has the right to draw whatever she damn well pleases."
followed by "But apparently it's important to defend Danish cartoonist right to draw Mohammed any way they like" ??? I am so confused by this

@UnknownDane

You seem to not understand how relationships work?

A friend is someone you have a personal relationship to.

While what Humon has is a professional relationship as a cartoonist to hundreds if not thousands of her readers online. And they obviously don't have a personal relationship to her either.

And regarding the comic you simply seems confused. The point of the Mohammed cartoons weren't that they where published in a newspaper. The world's Arab community aren't angry at newspapers if that's what you thought.

The point was that the papers printed a cartoon depicting the prophet Mohammed (which isn't allowed in Islam) and that the cartoonist chose to depict him as a terrorist.

So there's no comparison necessary at all there - it's the EXACT same thing as both discussions deal explicitly with what a cartoonist drew and how they chose to draw it. That the cartoon in one case was printed in a newspaper and in the other is published online makes no difference what so ever - the freedom of speech protects both equally.


EDIT:

No, there is no contradiction what so ever.

What you did was to cut your quote of my text short, thereby giving a completely misleading impression to what I actually said.
Now if you did this deliberately or just because you are so very confused as you say I don't know, but let me reiterate then:

"But apparently it's important to defend Danish cartoonist right to draw Mohammed any way they like, but it's not important defend their right to draw anything else then?

Is that the lesson Danish society learned from that incident? Artists right to free speech is only important if it offends Muslims?"

You see the question mark at the end of the sentences there? That means I'm asking you a question.

I'm saying Humon has the right to draw whatever she damn well pleases, and I'm asking you if you don't also agree with that - or if it's only important to defend Danish cartoonists right to draw what they like when they offend Muslims?

Because either you think freedom of speech is absolute and then you defend both the Mohammed cartoons and Humons right to draw whatever she like - or maybe you don't think freedom of speech is important and don't defend those things?

I know what I think and I've said so clearly but as asked you what your position is.

@Nisse_Hult Humon: Cartoons that should not have people commenting the same thing after a while
The Danish newspaper crisis: Is supposed to be commented on despite being an incident 12 years ago... Ah sweet sweet logic. Also your way of defending your statements really is confusing, in one part you´re talking about an author´s right to express themselves and ignore feedback (granted spammed feedback might not have much merit) and in another you use muhammed drawings in a negative tone despite them being an expression of the artist´s expression.
Really I don´t care for the debate of whether it´s Trump America or not but I do not agree with shooting down criticism not even given in a hostile tone.
Edit: really don't care for the muhammed crisis, should you be intentionally trying to annoy a people group through media? no. Should you be threathened on your life for drawing something that people find offensive? no.
The whole case of Muhammed depictions are a hotbed of problems that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole

@UnknownDane

A cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon and free speech is free speech - the same rules apply.

You seem to not like that fact, but it's still the fact that the exact same legal rules apply and morally it's the exact same question.

But instead of answering my simple question you spend your answer bitching about the question and speculation about what you think you've understood from my "tone".

Don't waste your time - your refusal to answer that simple question is answer enough in itself.

You obviously don't understand how freedom of speech works and you don't think it's as important to protect Humons right to draw brother America anyway she likes as you think it's important to defend other Danish cartoonists right to draw Mohammed anyway they like.

OK, now I know then.

@Nisse_Hult ... If that's what you get from it then I'll quite simply repeat my earlier line of minds working in mysterious ways. Really this has been a blast because of your fervor to defend an opinion I don't give a fuck about and accuse me of opinions I never once states all the while keeping a holier than god attitude to it all.
No I'm not just whining about whiners I'm defending Humon's artistical right.
No no money is not tied to a work.... except it is.
You're danish so 12 year old actions should be something you're keenly knowledgeable about
Those said actions are bad because they pissed off because of a representation of a people group but when people get a bit annoyed with the depiction of a people group in a comic it's protection of the artist's right.
Refute them all you want but that's what this conversation has been boiled down to all the while I enjoy the great confusion over the point you're trying to make

@UnknownDane

"your fervor to defend an opinion I don't give a fuck about"

The only opinion I've stated is my own and I'm sure you don't give a fuck about that, but that's how a discussion works so you shouldn't be surprised by it.

"and accuse me of opinions I never once states"

I've never accused you of holding any opinion at all. I simply acknowledged the fact that you can't (or won't) answer a simple question and drew my own conclusions from that. You could easily have avoided that completely by simply answering the question - but if you don't answer, people will draw their own conclusion from that - that's just how the world works.

"all the while keeping a holier than god attitude to it all"

Well "dude", what can I say? Sorry this didn't turn out to be the walk in the park you expected?

"No I'm not just whining about whiners I'm defending Humon's artistical right.
No no money is not tied to a work.... except it is.
You're danish so 12 year old actions should be something you're keenly knowledgeable about
Those said actions are bad because they pissed off because of a representation of a people group but when people get a bit annoyed with the depiction of a people group in a comic it's protection of the artist's right.
Refute them all you want but that's what this conversation has been boiled down to all the while I enjoy the great confusion over the point you're trying to make"

Actually I've said none of those things

(apart from you being partly right about the Mohammed cartoons. I've never actually demanded that you as a Dane should be "keenly knowledgeable" about them though - I just think you should know about the general debate since it was - and still is - a big deal.
I didn't demand that you know the name of the cartoonist or the name of the paper the cartoon was first printed in or any other detail.
That there was a conflict over cartoons depicting Mohammed - that was about all you needed to know, but in your mind that became "keenly knowledgeable" - which it really isn't. Any Dane should know that much at least.)

Other then that it's just your biased description of a discussion that didn't go the way you expected it to - but what did you really expect when you started this?

You came at me with "Dude I've seen you do this before and your argument is... bad... nothing more complicated than that." and then you couldn't produce a single new argument then ones I've already answered many times before from others like you.
And when I answer them again to you, you still repeat them since you have nothing else.

This was a bad idea from the beginning as you didn't have a thoroughly thought out argument and you couldn't provide rational responses as soon as I questioned your initial argument.

There's a lesson here.

You could do as you have in your last post - just mischaracterize everything I said and reject the experience of what actually happened.
Or you could use it as a learning opportunity to work on you argumentative skills and arguments to the next time you find yourself wanting to debate someone.

@Nisse_Hult Minds working in mysteeeerious ways. I have no need to write a lenghty statement over a person I disagree with. I do wonder why you think I have something to win from this. Am I confused on your own conviction about free speech and criticism hell yeah, but I don't gain anything over a so called "victory or defeat".

@UnknownDane
You won't get any sense from Nisse_Hult on this issue at all. I had the same argument about abusive representations, especially when their been grossly inaccurate. He assumes that Humon can write what she likes, which is true provide it doesn't breach laws, say on hate speech. However he also assumes that no one else has freedom of speech to disagree, which is wrong. Sometimes he can be rational and responsible but he has a deeply autocratic side.

@stevep59 Can't agree more with you there, but still entertaining to see his rather odd arguments for why his opinion is the better one

@UnknownDane

I wouldn't use the word entertaining but rather disappointing that he thinks no one else has the right to a view of their own.

@stevep59 The latter part of your statement is probably quite true, he uses lenghty and frankly boring and pointless points to try and defend himself and while holding an attitude he at the same time denies said attitude

@stevep59

I'm surprised to see a grown man stroke young men's worst impulses like this.

You've been alive and part of this world long enough to know that there is a difference between what you have the right to do and what you should do.
What the (mostly young men) complaining about Humon's choice to depict brother America claim are that it's their right to endlessly whine and complain about Humon's decision - which she has every right to make.
This is not about informing her of their opinion - that was done months ago by numerous people already.
This is just repeated, bitter whining that she doesn't conform to their expectations that she make changes to her comic just because they feel she should.

This is certainly not about freedom of speech - this is about common courtesy and civility.
These people still complaining simply doesn't respect Humon's right to decide over her own comic.

Now you're old enough to know that people acting like this in real life are simply seen as dicks.

These are the people bitching about the food at the company Christmas party not being to their liking - while everyone else accept it. Or the people in the local community complaining about their neighbors Christmas decorations just because they think they are ugly. And I'm not talking about stating an opinion, mentioning something once - I'm talking about the ENDLESS WHINING of some people.
We've all met these entitled people who believe that THEIR opinions are the only ones that matter and who expects everyone else to conform to their views - and we all know they're just dicks.

Because young people today have grown up largely online, where the negative social consequences of being a dick aren't as starkly felt, many of them (especially men, since we're generally less socially skilled them women anyway) has grown up with an inflated sense of self-importance.
They believe it's their right to say and do anything to anyone (online anyway) consequence-free - because that's their experience in life so far. The problem with this is that this entitled mindset then crashes with reality when they don't get away with this behavior in real life without suffering seriously negative consequences.

That's one of the reasons why the western world is now experiencing the creation of a new group of social outcasts - predominantly young men who's failed at life, living in their moms basement, spending much of their time online bitterly complaining about how unfair everything is to them.

We as grown men shouldn't encourage this behavior - it's doing these people are terrible disservice to pretend that their sense of entitlement is justified on some principled grounds.

Because it's not.
They're just acting like dicks and they need to realize that and mend their ways, or they risk throwing their life away as whiny man-babies that no one will ever enjoy the company off.

@Nisse_Hult

I'm [unfortunately] not surprised your such a bigot. It is about freedom of speech and your desire to suppress it.

There are limits on freedom of speech, which is right, in terms of hate speech or incidents that can cause harm - the classic case of shouting fire in a crowded space applies here. However if someone makes statements in a public location, and nowadays that include the internet, then others have the right to disagree with them and state that disagreement.

Like you I strongly dislike Trump and his actions but support for them should be countered by reasoned debate, not declaring people aren't allowed to say anything. Apart from any moral issues that would just make such people martyr and encourage their viewpoint. Something which I realised long ago. As long as they don't exceed the limits of free speech they can say what they like and others can counter them.

As such I stand with Voltaire's famous statement, or similarly Martin Niemöller's famous lie. It is both my moral duty and in my interests to opposes attempts to prevent debate. [Since you used the same argument when Humon went OTT on the Britexit issue.]

You have a point in terms that in a number of areas in the modern world a moaning culture has been encouraged but that is far from restricted to young people who spend too much time on-line.

@stevep59

You're projecting.
Bigots are the ones trying to silence Humon here.
Because that's all they're trying to do. They're not telling Humon anything she hasn't already heard hundreds of times. This has nothing to do with free speech - this is just constant whining by people who simply won't accept that Humon has every right to draw her own comic as she wishes and that she has every right to ignore their views.
People who can't accept her right to her personal and artistic freedom are simply intolerant dicks.

And intolerance towards such intolerance is not a vice but a virtue.

Go back and look at when these objections where first raised and you'll find I've never tried to suppress anyone's free speech. I've debated this countless times and I have never called for having people banned or their comments removed for them simply whining about this.
I'm not trying to suppress anything - I'm trying to teach people who lack it manners.

You could just as well tell the mom's in the queue at your local Tesco they're supressing their kids freedom of speech when they tell them not to whine about candy the next time you go.

Because that's exactly what I'm doing here - trying to teach those who doesn't know better how to behave.

And I've said nothing about Trump, as this has nothing to do with Trump.
This is about common civility.

"Since you used the same argument when Humon went OTT on the Britexit issue."

Aha, so THAT'S what's really bugging you then. You believe Humon "went OTT on the Brexit issue".
Which is why you side with the whiners of course - because you too feel that Humon has wrongly expressed an opinion you didn't like to see expressed.
Otherwise you wouldn't characterize her comic on Brexit as "OTT".

OK, so you're basically like the whiners then - another resentful little man that can't accept that the creator of this comic has the full right to depict the world as she sees it.

You're better then them in that you're not still actively whining about the wrong you think Humon committed by expressing a different view then yours - but you're still hurt enough by it that you have to bring it up now and reveal your true motive.

"As such I stand with Voltaire's famous statement, or similarly Martin Niemöller's famous lie. It is both my moral duty and in my interests to opposes attempts to prevent debate."

Well that's just a load of bullshit of course - but I guess it feels good to tell yourself you have a noble motive as you complain about a person who's only fault is having hurt your Little Englander feelings.

And please provide a link to where I ever used an argument as weak as comparing myself to Voltaire or Niemöller - that would be really interesting to see, as I always cringe when people do.

@Nisse_Hult

Just keep lying to yourself. As you say you have no comprehension of the results of your actions, nor do you care as long as your ego continues to inflate. Don't let the fact your a stupid, arogant bigot stop you being confident your a god and hence everything you do is perfect.

@stevep59

"As you say you have no comprehension of the results of your actions"

I've never said that.

"your a god and hence everything you do is perfect"

And I've CERTAINLY never said that.

I'm simply the guy with the better argument.
Which you've now conceded by the fact that you've got no meaningful counter to the points I raise, instead falling back on pure insults and putting words in my mouth.

@Nisse_Hult

"As you say you have no comprehension of the results of your actions"

I phased that badly I admit. I should have said as you display. I sit corrected there.

"your a god and hence everything you do is perfect"

That is definitely your stance since you assume you are always totally right and anyone who dares to disagree with you is utterly wrong. And your refusal to ever consider you might be in error. [I could have used another of my favour quotes there about closed minds but it would also have totally passed you by]. Hence your habit of responding with lies and insults when someone stands up to you.

Basically your never going to be anything but a closed minded bigot whos convinced your always right, regardless of what everybody else says. That's why you think its your right to demand suppression of opposing views. Fortunately your an egotical idiot rather than the autocrat you desire to be so I can ignore your hate rants.

I don't like you because of your intolerance. You don't like me because I think differently than you. Lets leave it at that.

@Nisse_Hult

Dude

>This has been explained ad nauseam to you people complaining about this already so your choices are to keep enjoying the free comics or you can always leave.

Just because something is FREE doesn't mean it's immune from criticism. It's like you don't understand that there can be a middle ground between liking most of the aspects of something and having some small issues with it. And I loooooove this point as well. "If you don't like it just leave!" No, Humon is a big girl; she CHOSE to have a comment section on her comic. She CHOSE to give people an outlet for us to comment on aspects of her comic. Any content regardless of its origin is NOT IMMUNE FROM CRITIQUE.

>You or anyone does however not have the right to bitch about the free content you get not being to your liking - that's just rude and certainly won't win you any friends.

If you think this, I got some bad news. Maybe in real life this applies. But here on the internet, prepare to have you ass handed to you on a plater if you think something you make is immune from criticism.

@Mr_Plinkett #9710993

Rule #1 on the internet. Find a very small forum with a community of no more than 20 people. Or get used to taking shit

There's a reason I spend far more time on the GameFAQs boards of decades old video games, than I do on broadly available social media.

Honestly, I don't comment down here too often, because I don't like dealing with shit. I constantly avoid defending or attacking Trump, or even saying whether or not I voted for him, because taking a clear side, and trying to defend it, means taking even more shit. It's not something I'm up for all of the time.

So if Humon wants to stop telling friendly satircal jokes, and start commenting on modern events, well... I assume she's not so stupid as to not know what she's getting into.

Oh, and @Nisse_Hult? My comment was my free work. What right do you have to complain about it? You can enjoy my comment, and have a discussion with me, or you can just leave.

@Sines @Mr_Plinkett

It's not entirely your own fault really, that you are so clueless.
This is the world you've grown up in and since your parents failed you, you had to figure it out for yourself and that's not easy.
And you're not alone either.
There is a whole subset of your generation of young men in the western world that will end up like losers in their moms basement for the rest of their lives, because they never figured out how the real world works and understood that the fantasy world online they grew up in isn't actually real.

So let me tell you this, to give you at least a chance:

There are no different rules for the internet - life is life, regardless if it happens online or off.

So when you act like whiny assholes online, that's as obnoxious as if you would have done so IRL and people will respond to you in the same way.

Because you type this safe behind your keyboards where the social effects of your assholery doesn't immediately come back to haunt you, you live in the mistaken belief that there are no social consequences.

But there are.

Because acting like whiny assholes online, believing you have the right to complain about what others do, while you yourself contribute nothing of value to society or this community - that will poison your soul and turn you into another one of those entitled whiny little man-babies who waste their life away in moms basement, hating on everyone and everything online because they failed in life themselves.

But obviously that's not their fault of course. Oh no - it's the liberals, the immigrants, the minorities and always the women.
No one is apparently more at fault when men fuck up their own life then women.

So there you go boys - that's what you have to look forward to unless you mend your ways.

I've given you fair warning anyway.

Oh, and @Sines? Your last comment makes no logical sense, as whining isn't actually free work for anyone as no one wants it.
Your whining is as desirable to me as my shit is to you so I guess you'll be wanting my shit in the mail then - right?

But you posted this nonsensical comment anyway, because you mistakenly believe that being snarky is a sign of great intelligence and wit and that you "win" arguments online by being snarky.
Because that's how the whining man-babies you've learnt from online want the world to work.
They're not socially skilled enough to make it in the real world, or smart enough to make rational arguments that can convince anyone online, so all they have to fall back on is snark, resentment and bile against anyone more successful then themselves.

But all the bile in the world won't change the fact that they are losers - and if you continue on the path you're on - so will you be.

@Nisse_Hult

... Whether or not your point is valid the venom and anger you are showing kills any chance you have of convincing anyone to join you. If anything all you are doing is validating others opinion of being in the right. People make clear and reasonable comments, to which you respond with anger and insults.

And to your opinion that nothing said once should be said again, I remind you that we are not one entity. These comments are made up of dozens if not hundreds of individuals from around the world. We do not share the same language, background, humor, or view points. If a statement is made by one it is the view of one person out of many. If it is made by many It is not one person saying it over and over again. It is many voicing their agreement with the opinion.

Step back from the computer and read what you are saying out loud. If you heard a stranger using the tone you are would you think they were making a valid point or would they sound like they were trying to shout someone down?

@Silverrey

Nice to see someone else commenting and producing actual arguments that haven't been repeated and countered dozens of times already. :-)

And a lot of the arguments you give are actually good and valid as well.

"Whether or not your point is valid the venom and anger you are showing kills any chance you have of convincing anyone to join you."

Yes, you're right my tone in some of these responses is probably not going to convert any of the people I'm addressing my comments to.
A better person then me would be able to argue the same points without getting annoyed for as long as I have, but unfortunately I'm not that dispassionate.
After having had this discussion dozens of times with people producing no new arguments what so ever, only repeating the same - already countered arguments - I'm getting a bit annoyed - which shows in my writing.

That's not optimal, but I'm only human after all. And while the people I'm talking directly to probably are less likely to see the point I'm making because of it, it's not actually the case that it "kills any chance you have of convincing anyone to join you" like you write.
Because the points I'm making are still valid, even if I'm making them in an annoyed tone.

"People make clear and reasonable comments, to which you respond with anger and insults."

Well that's actually in dispute as I see them as being entitled whinings from people who should know that:

1) this has been expressed countless times already (in some cases by the same people now whining about it again)

2) Humon has the complete right to decide every single aspect of this comic and has no obligation what so ever to listen to any of the objections they raise

3) She's shown no interest what so ever to change her decision, despite these objection having been raised, with the exact same arguments, countless times already

Which leads me to the conclusion that this is not in any way "reasonable comments" as you see them, but just endless whining, like kids in the grocery isle crying about how they want candy when their mom already told them no repeatedly.
But while children have the excuse of being children, these are supposed to be adult's that still haven't learnt to behave properly, and after having told them so repeatedly I find it annoying that they never learn.

As I said - a better person would make this point more dispassionately, but that I'm not able to at this time doesn't actually weaken the points I'm making.

"And to your opinion that nothing said once should be said again, I remind you that we are not one entity. These comments are made up of dozens if not hundreds of individuals from around the world. We do not share the same language, background, humor, or view points. If a statement is made by one it is the view of one person out of many. If it is made by many It is not one person saying it over and over again. It is many voicing their agreement with the opinion."

In some cases this is true, while in others it is not.
I haven't traced ever single comment from every single person, but I know there are people who've repeatedly raised this point in several different comics over time.
So it's certainly not the case that every single person holding this opinion has only brought it up once.
But this site is also a community, so every single person doesn't need to make a comment about every single thing - sometimes it should be enough to know that a subject has been raised for an adult to feel that they don't also have to repeat the exact same arguments again.

This is especially true in a situation like this, where Humon's right to draw what ever she wants however she wants it shouldn't be in dispute. It's her comic and she has the right as both as an individual and as an artist to depict the world as SHE sees it.
She's providing this view of hers for free to us as a source of enjoyment to others, she expects or demands nothing in return.
Of course she knows everyone won't like everything she does and I'm sure she's perfectly fine with people expressing their opinion - but this has now gone on for months and it should be clear to everybody this criticism is now just pointless whining. Humon's not going to change her decision because of the people whining about this, but still they whine. Which only gives the impression that they're not actually respecting that her choice to draw as she pleases trumps their opinions.
At which point this just becomes rude to Humon.

The people whining are also perfectly fine accepting free comics from her as they still hang around - but they won't accept her choice in this matter - which shows an entitled attitude where they expect free stuff and still feel their right to bitch about it supersedes any respect for the artist providing them the free stuff.

If I had been as annoyed by something Humon did as these people I simply wouldn't have come back to the site. Because I'd still accept her right to depict the world how ever she saw it.
I certainly wouldn't feel that I had the right to endlessly whine on her to remake the comic more to my liking - and it certainly wouldn't reflect well on me if I did.
You don't always get everything you want in life - adults know this and can deal with it.
Only spoilt children whine about everything not being exactly to their liking.

"Step back from the computer and read what you are saying out loud. If you heard a stranger using the tone you are would you think they were making a valid point or would they sound like they were trying to shout someone down?"

Again, I accept your point that I'm not expressing my points in the most moderate way in this last thread - a better person would have expressed them better, I agree.
But honesty, I actually don't put that much importance on the tone of a persons comments.
Most important for me is always the substance of the argument a person is making - is it the stronger or the weaker argument compared to the other party in the discussion?
After that I still might feel that the person making the stronger argument had a more disagreeable tone - but unless I've followed the entire forum for a time and gotten to know the characters I'd also know that I'm only viewing part of a larger discussion.

Maybe the person sounding more disagreeable had good reason to be so? Or maybe he/she didn't?
The rub of the matter for me would still be the actual arguments being presented.

I can't say everyone thinks like this, but I can honestly say that's how I usually view these things anyway.

@Nisse_Hult - "You or anyone does however not have the right to bitch about the free content you get not being to your liking - that's just rude and certainly won't win you any friends."

Actually we do have that right. Nothing is free of criticism. If someone wants to make a statement or comment about Humons choice to change Brother America into Trump!America, they are free to do so. Just because you don't like that they do so, and just because the product is technically free, does not mean they do not have the right to judge that product or give it a poor reply.

To put it simply: Sines has the same right to judge the comic as you do to judge Sines. Welcome to the real world mate.

@Mecharic

Well "mate", I've been around this real world for twice the time you have, so let we tell you what I wrote in another reply to Sines and Mr-Plinkett:

A lot of you young guys online live in the mistaken belief that there is a difference between life on- and offline. Sines and Mr Plinkett both makes reference to that "fact" as well.
But that's a completely mistaken belief, because the exact same social rules apply whenever humans interact.

The fact that you, safe behind a keyboard, can act like a whiny asshole without suffering the immediate social consequences of your action doesn't make that action more OK.
Try being a whiny bitch and complain about something countless others have already complained about, countless times already in real life and see how popular that action makes you.

A clear downside of the anonymity online is the lack of these direct social consequences and it's obvious some people can't handle that responsibility. Unfortunately this is especially true for young men (who have always, generally speaking, been less socially skilled then women) who have grown up with these anonymous social interactions online and not really learnt to understand that the same social rules apply everywhere.

But just because you've grown up in a largely consequence-free online world where you could behave in a way that certainly won't be accepted in the real world you talk about, that doesn't make that behavior OK online either.

Because your rights don't extend to the right to be a dick. Sure - technically they do in the real world as well, as it's not illegal to be a dick.
But it's still not consequence-free, like you and so many other young men today seem to believe.

And when you put your "right" to whine over the importance of being respectful to others - then you're acting like a dick.

Humon knows full well a lot of people are unhappy with her decision to draw brother America like Trump - that has been pointed out countless times, again and again by some very bitter people who simply won't respect her decision.
Because this is what's it about:
This is her comic, it's her decision to draw it however she damn well pleases and we, her viewers, simply have to respect her decision even if we happen to disagree with it.
Or we can always leave, if it bothers us that much.
But continue hanging around only to whine about something it's clear Humon won't change and no one has the right to expect her to change is simply rude - or simply put being a dick.

Now act like this in real life and you will fail socially fairly quickly. No one wants a whiny bitch around that can't accept anything that's not to his liking.
Which is why the developed world is now seeing the creation of a class of social outcasts. Whiny little man-babies living in their moms basement for the rest of their lives, bitching and whining about everything that doesn't suit them online, since they've failed to make it in the real world.

That's where people (mostly men) who believe that their "rights" trumps social rules for common courtesy and respect end up.
If you don't want to end up there you'd better adjust your thinking as the entitled attitude you, Sines and Mr Plinkett have given proof of here is poisoning your mind.

Respect Humons choice to do as she please and stop believing that what YOU think is so damn important, OK?

@Nisse_Hult - No. I'll criticize who I want, when I want. Free, paid, or public, nothing is free from being judged by others. Grow up and get over it.

@Mecharic

As I've already told you, I'm old enough to be your dad so I know a lot more about growing up then you do.

And one of those things are that as you grown up, you learn that things don't always go down the way you want in life - and that you don't have the right to expect them to.

Other people will sometimes have the right to make decisions you disagree with and you have to learn to accept that fact as a grown up and not whine about it like a little kid.

Now either you'll learn that one day too, or you'll remain an entitled little man-child for the rest of your life - like your current president.

But unlike him you weren't born a billionaire, so you can't buy your friends or partners, but actually have to behave in a manner that's attractive to others human beings.

And being an entitled little man-child isn't.

@Sines sad to see that a reasonable statement is only met up by an asshole swede and anonymous thumbs down. you came at it from a middle ground level showing no preference and I gotta say well said my fellow murican.

@SirKibbz

Actually it's not an reasonable argument in any way.

And to prove that I now demand that you immediately start producing a comic to my liking.

I won't be offering any money or encouragement for this as I expect you to do it for free, but I'll give you plenty of bitching when your comics don't live up to my expectations.

There, now go prove you truly think this is a reasonable argument by acting in the way you and Sines expects Humon to behave.

@SirKibbz More than being sad over Sines who knows how to do legitimate criticism I'm more sad over Nisse who apparantly thinks that criticism is only allowed for payers. Not sure where he's getting those ideas but it makes no sense

@UnknownDane

People who pay at least have some sort of argument to make that the product they got wasn't what they expected.

That doesn't mean that an artist like Humon looses her artistic freedom - she's still entitled to draw whatever she likes and if she had paying customers there still isn't a court in either Sweden or Denmark at least that would have allowed her customers to sue her for drawing what they didn't like.

But I could at least understand such paying customers being disappointed and I think it would be fair to let them express that view.

But people receiving free stuff has absolutely NO argument to make what so ever about the free stuff they receive.
If I where as unhappy about this comic as those whiny children complaining I simply wouldn't come here and view it any more - it's very simple!

But showing up for free stuff and then having the gall to still whine about it endlessly is just rude and ill mannered.

@Nisse_Hult So let´s say I was your friend who wanted to create a game, it was broken, horribly written and overall just lacking, would you not tell me that I have areas that I should improve because you have no economical investment in it?

@UnknownDane

These people aren't Humons friends and many of them aren't even friendly in the way they convey their opinions.

I'm not saying all are unfriendly - if you go back and check I haven't always commented on people bringing this up as I sometimes (especially in the beginning when the Trumpified brother America was a new thing) felt that people had a legitimate right to express an opinion.

But as time moved on more and more of these comments where just bitter whining that have no legitimacy what so ever - especially not as they're comment 1625 making the exact same argument and it's clear Humon won't change her mind.

Also a friend tells a friend something like that - he doesn't post 1625 comments about it on his friends public website for the game, endlessly whining about how bad he thinks the game is.

At that point that "friend" is clearly no longer a friend, but just a whiny asshole, OK?

@Nisse_Hult So responding to what you classify as spam is to spam a response to the spam to stop the spam? Honestly I can see that we will never see eye to eye about this subject so I take this situation as a agree to disagree because this will not get anywhere and I have no personal interrest in the subject of what Humon creates.

@UnknownDane

You think it would be a better solution to ignore the whining against Humon and send the signal that I'm OK with people bitching about free content not being to their liking and that I'm OK with an artist being pressured to change her work because others disagree with it?

Yeah sure - who needs civility or freedom of speech in a democratic society, right?

No, that's not an option because I have certain values that I believe in - like civility and freedom of speech.

So I'm not silently letting assholes try to bully others into conforming to their views just because that would be easier for me.

The people who bitch and moan at Humon needs to just shut the fuck up and accept that she has every right to draw what ever she damn well pleases and stop being such whiny assholes.
Humon's heard them and she doesn't care - they just have to learn to live with that fact.

@Nisse_Hult Minds work in mysteeeeeeeerious ways. I clearly stated that this discussion is useless because we clearly will never see face to face with your constant attachment to money and comments so keep sending me responses if you want but then you´re really just spaming me with the same arguments over and over (kinda ironic)

@UnknownDane

Aha, so you where trying to tell me not to reply to your last post so you could get the last word?

Sorry - didn't get that.

I thought you where talking about me replying to those that whine on Humon, which should be obvious by my response.

But be my guest and write some killer last comment after this then and I'll promise not to reply, now that I know you want to have the last word so very much.

@Sines

I think it's a bit like the difference between modern Brother Germany and his precursors.

To make this big a change in the national persona used in the comic, just over this particular election, may seem like an overreaction; but Trump is nutty enough that a country that elects him changes its reputation.

@niauropsaka #9710744

I was thinking about Germany and Nazi Germany, but it's a big difference. First off, Trump isn't committing genocide. This isn't the difference between "Invade and butcher" vs. "Let in millions of refugees" that there is in Germany.

Second, though, America was ALREADY Trump. Loud, obnoxious, kinda ridiculous, doesn't play by others rules. Trump is pretty much the physical manifestation of MURICA.

But by drawing him as Trump, it devalues the broader context of those values. Of those loud and obnoxious farmers who had the ridiculous idea to challenge the British Empire, and followed that up with the even more ridiculous idea of letting the commoners say whatever they want.

My country is not Trump. It's Trump AND Obama. It's Washington and Lincoln. It's Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt. It's every Hollywood actor and every redneck farmer. It's the men who fought to end slavery, and the men who fought to maintain it. It's all of us, at our best, and at our worst. To boil us down to one particular leader, when the only other time this happens is for literally the Nazis, it's an insult and an utter misrepresentation. It hurts the spirit of the comic, which, until the election, tried to take a broad-brush approach to each of the countries, unless explicitly dealing with a historical event.

@Sines

I was surprised when Humon changed Brother America's appearance. And you're right that it is redundant. He already was a big spray-tanned oaf.

So, you make a good point. (That doesn't mean I agree with all of it; and I'm not going to tell Humon how to draw her comic.)

I guess it makes more sense to see Brother America's makeover as Brother America going through a bit of temporary insanity, and not as Brother America somehow actually being Trump. And characters going through a bit of passing madness is still in line with the concept of the comic.

@Sines Well yeah, but they did say that the avatar would stay like this if your nation actually voted him in, and maybe that was a joke but they couldn't exactly go back on that. I mean sure it's a bit unfair especially as the majority didn't even vote for him, but a lot of you did and he's such a figure that trump kinda is a stereotype for america now. It's what we hear about in the news, it's what america's known for now. Like sure it's unfair so many countries have sucky leaders and maybe they do get represented more fairly, but it is still almost half of you that voted for him so maybe suck it up and deal with it? It's what your nation decided to do (even if you're not getting portrayed like all the other countries, but you're not like all the other countries, you are very influential). When we think of america we do think of trump, not in the same way we might have thought of Obama, sadly it is a representation of your country how the world sees you now, even if we're well aware most of you, along with everyone else, doesn't really like him.

'@Sines' i agree. but she is just mad that trump was elected thats all.
zero rationality.

@slicergod

The rationality here is Humon produces these for free - which gives her the freedom to draw whatever she damn well pleases and you exactly two options: enjoy them or leave if you don't enjoy them.

Your opinion about what she draws and how she does it is completely irrelevant - something a lot of people seem to have a very hard time accepting.

Instead you endlessly bitch and moan about the free content you receive not being to your liking.

Which only make you look like spoilt children and no one likes spoilt children.

'@Nisse'_Hult no she does not do them for "free"
she does them in exchange for patreon money.
and she panders.

@slicergod

She certainly does - the site is completely free.

Of course she also produces other work that she charges for - she has costs for doing all of this after all - but no one is forced to buy those.

So it's not like you HAVE to pay anything to view the site and it is in fact, just as I said, free.

She "panders"? Oh, the horror of someone trying to promote her work - how dare she?!

While you're a sad little shit who spends time on a site you do nothing but criticize, provide for free to you and everyone else by a talented young woman you do nothing but shit on.

Christ - get a life!

'@Nisse'_Hult cry more salty pants. i have freedom of speech. unlike you i can criticize people without fear of being thrown in jail for "hate speech". i also dont have to worry about tons of "refugees" rioting.

'@Nisse'_Hult taking the lords name in vain is hate speech by your own country's laws btw.

@slicergod

How stupid are you - really?

Sweden is one of the most secular countries in the world - there is certainly no laws against taking the lords name in vain here you silly, silly man.

Since you're a cowardly little wimp you won't even reveal what country you live in, but I'm pretty sure you could be put in jail for hate speech as well. Almost ever single western nation has statutes on the book regarding that - even if they're not always defined as laws against "hate speech" specifically.

But what hate speech laws act against is incitement to violence towards groups of people - and that's illegal everywhere.

Try standing up in any western country and incite violence and hatred against anyone, and you're almost guaranteed to break some law.

Regarding refugees rioting I don't have to worry either. That's just right-wing propaganda - it's not a real problem.

Also, if you weren't such a coward I could have checked the crime statistics and odds are you're probably living in a country with more crime, drug and violence then Sweden - since our crime stats compare favorably with most other nations.

It's affected every other country's view of the US. To many, #45 *IS* now America, and reveals the sort of people we were all along. We could say the comic is pretty truthful in that regard.

It's also been a major time of change for the US.

Currently:

We're at record levels when it comes to political and social division.

Charleston had some "very nice people."

Related: KKK, Neo-nazi, and other hate group membership, has surged.

The women's march was the largest, single-day protest in all of US history.

Previous presidents are breaking national tradition, and are speaking out. Together, and regardless of political party.

Depending on who you ask, #45 is the cause, or is a symptom of social movements that fed into the above.

In that way, I suppose it is fairly accurate. :/

So relieved to see pre-2017 Brother America. Now if only we could do the same with the real thing...

So happy, and yet so sad to see normal Brother America. I miss the time before I had to worry about a racist, misogynistic, homophobic, habitually lying sexual predator who possibly has dementia starting a nuclear holocaust. I really need to get out of this country.

@LiTMac for the orange twatt to have dementia would imply he has enough of a brain to degrade!

@LuxVertas He's thinking with his dick, not his brain. He has no use for a brain. I imagine viagra is thus all he needs to avoid dementia.

@Louhikaarme I doubt he has a dick or even balls...

I think we have a skin walker here kids!

@LiTMac I don't like him/didn't vote for him either, but that's going a little too far.

@EndgameOnyx It's not an attack (at least, not that part specifically). There's actually a few signs of dementia he's exhibited, particularly how he gets disoriented and walks off in the wrong direction when getting on or off Air Force One. Not enough evidence to be certain, but enough to worry. If you google it you get a bunch of news articles, but here's Stephen Colbert's take on it: http://ew.com/tv/2017/12/02/stephen-colbert-trump-dementia/

@EndgameOnyx It's an observation, not an accusation. Luckily people hate him so much that they seem to be doing the right thing just to spite Trump, e.g. North Korea apparently ending their nuclear testing program.

Danish version:
The waiter then goes out to do drugs, beat his wife all while the cook of the restaurant serves human meat to the customers.

DANISH COMEDY EVERYONE!

@daniboyi
Sounds fun! ^^

@daniboyi Not like lovely wholesome British comedy like the League of Gentlemen

@daniboyi De grønne slagtere? XD

I'm really tired of folks apologizing for Trump being president. First off, the people apologizing almost certainly didn't vote for him, so it's not like they're responsible.

Second, after looking at what he's actually said and done, I fail to see anything worth even a fraction of the hysteria his presidency has produced. This includes perusing his Twitter account, which is pretty tame compared to the reactions people have had.

@Brigid
Well, his approach to Israel so far screwed up lot of people. As an example.

@Ninian What, showing support for one of our allies? Aside from the usual anti-Semitic screeching, how, exactly, have people been screwed over?

@Brigid https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/europe/trump-jerusalem-pope.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-israel-capital.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/13/trumps-jerusalem-move-might-have-made-russia-stronger.html

USA have forsaken its roll as a peace negotiator (Palestina dosent have the trust in USA anymore). It will probably be okay because Russia will take the roll as peace negotiator, but Trump have not make things better between Israel and Palestina. In best case senario it will have no impact on the peace. You could say that Trump screwed up the peace, and whit that, screwed up humanity, but that may be a litle far fetch

@Stiw42 Palestine never trusted the USA. Have you been paying attention for the last few decades? Good grief, all this fuss over moving the USA embassy in *Israel* to the *capital of Israel.*

@Brigid
I'm not an expert in diplomacy, but I think maybe we could let the experts in diplomacy give the President advice on how to handle diplomacy, and maybe he could take their advice?

@niauropsaka Maybe he did? Depends on which experts he asked. The ones predicting doom and gloom all over the media certainly aren't on his staff. As someone who also isn't an expert in diplomacy, I prefer to reserve judgement until I see the consequences. Real consequences, not just a bunch of academics going into hysterics.

@Brigid It's just the regressives that have brainwashed themselves having hysteria because reality doesn't conform to their delusions.

@Finn123 The man was elected on a platform of pure, uninformed bigotry and is currently overseeing a tax reform that will effectively cripple the American economy and plunge tens-if not hundreds-of millions into debt that they can never hope to recover from.

@TheChief What bigotry did Trump run on? I literally have no idea what you are talking about. The closest example was his comment about Mexico not sending it's best. But that's true, isn't it? You don't illegally immigrate to a country when you're doing just fine, you need to be at least a little bit desperate. Now this desperation could be the standard desperation of the poor, and I'm sure many illegal immigrants are good people who decided to do something drastic to improve their lives, and the lives of their family. But that desperation is also going to be present in criminals, and people whose lives are bad as a result of their own actions.

Trump doesn't care what color your skin is, what god you worship, where you come from or who you sleep with. Trump only cares about one thing. Do you think he's great? If so, then you're okay in his book.

@Sines Thank you. I spent far too long almost getting a degree in journalism to trust anything that comes from the news. If I want information, I'll find some primary sources and make my own decisions.

@Sines
1) I am completely in favor of putting stoppers into our immigration system, but that doesn't mean the rhetoric Trump used used is anything but unleaded bigotry.

2) Banning immigration on the grounds of the majority religion in a given country is absolutely bigoted.

3) Most importantly is his support of this tax bill which will fuck us all right to Hell.

@Sines Charleston had some "very fine people," I hear.

Poll results and research will unfortunately back up the surge in racism and bigotry. We don't have to point fingers, thankfully. Check Reuters, check Pew Research Foundation, and so on.

Or, check the surge in upper-education studies and research papers that's happened in an effort to understand why racism, bigotry, sexism and so on have surged as they have.

I agree though, he's really only out for himself.

@Brigid also are 69% of Trumps statements are fals and he did won the PolitiFact's 2015 Lie of the Year.

@Stiw42 Funny, I keep hearing that he's a lying liar who lies, but rarely, if ever, hear an specifics.

@Brigid http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/barely-true/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/11/14/president-trump-has-made-1628-false-or-misleading-claims-over-298-days/?utm_term=.3c031f9d08db
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2017/11/28/daniel-dales-donald-trump-fact-check-updates.html

@Stiw42 Uh huh. For some of these, an understanding of the concept of hyperbole is necessary. A difficult concept for the literal-minded, I'm sure. Others, such as the stock market, are more predictions that were reversed due to actions taken after he made those predictions. Being inaccurate doesn't equal lying.

@Brigid

Here's an attempt at compiling a complete count thus far.
2001 lies in 355 days in office - or more then 5 lies per day:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.9019e17eacca

And that's only the one's he's made in public. He obviously lies even more then that in private settings, since he's a pathological liar who lies about anything - no matter how obviously false it is.
Like his widely ridiculed claim that his inauguration crowd was larger then Obama's.

@Brigid Two Words: Net Neutrality. It just got repealed here in the states.

@Loosecat56 Not going to lose any sleep over it since I did my research and its repeal isn't even half as bad as people make out.

@Brigid please share some of your research, because I can not see any good with removing net neutrality

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtiIazfoQM

@Brigid

Eh, the wall is still a noxious idea.

And in general, it's scary to think that the world's biggest economy could be stuck with a dumb, crooked cross between Steve Harper and Silvio Berlusconi until the next scheduled election.

@niauropsaka Funny, considering how many companies are giving their employees raises and bonuses because of the tax bill.

@Brigid
Is it all of them? No? OK, then think about how many companies aren't doing that. Was the fiscal cost to the government worth it?

I had to hunt to see what comment you were responding to. Did you think that because I said 'economy' that meant a response about taxes just answered all objections?

Do you know how many American civil servants are likely to lose their jobs under this kind of administration? How many Medicaid recipients are going to suffer if Paul Ryan finally gets to slash Medicaid? How abusive the entire system of post-secondary education has become due to 'conservatives' removing public support for universities? The economy is more than taxes!

But really, I'm worried about the cost to the sciences. Rich countries, big countries, and powerful countries fund big science. Steve Harper attacked science in Canada, and Trump/Pence are doing the same in the USA. Silvio Berlusconi was basically trying to play at being President while acting like Hugh Hefner and keeping the media (which he largely owned) full of distractions and fluff. Trump is dangerous in part because he is like a teetotal version of Berlusconi; and Pence may an even bigger 'religious right' kook than Steve Harper and seems like much less of a nice guy. (I don't think Harper ever took a thousand-mile detour to disrespect a few football players.)

@niauropsaka If people are that worried about all the government's pet projects, they can donate money. https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsfaq/faq_gifts_to_govt.htm

Look, I appreciate your concern, especially about the various social services. It's because I'm in the system that I don't trust the government. Inept bookkeeping, questionable appropriation of funds, a tangled mess of red tape, and worse. I hate the current system.

I've also been to college. Even with government support (or perhaps because of it) tuition has been rising to the point where trying to get any kind of degree could easily put you in debt for life. Something has to change.

I agree the economy is more than taxes. It's people having money to spend so that companies can afford to make products and pay their employees. I don't see how letting people keep more of the money they earn so they can spend it however they want is a bad thing.

As for Trump being dangerous, I honestly can't argue with that. Sometimes a leader has to be dangerous.

And this is why I can't STAND American sitcoms. The main characters are ass-holes! (British comedy is better... but too dark for my regular viewing pleasure)

@Kin In British sitcoms the main characters are even bigger ass-holes and usually a twisted as well.

I'm happy to see the old-brother America but I think the Trump one should stay until me and my fellow citizens earn the old one back. We're making strides in that regard but not there yet!

@Breyson
If I recall, you guys impeached Ol' Billy just for having his penis sucked by the wrong mouth. Perhaps not commendable, but at least largely unrelated to how well he was doing his job as President.

Surely you have your pick of even more valid reasons to give the Orange Asshole the boot?

@Hinoron That was the same people that are currently supporting Trump. Currently, there's an investigation into the relationship between Trump's campaign team and the Russian government, but we'll have to see if that actually succeeds in taking him down. The Republican party has already made it clear that their priorities are winning elections over anything else: while a few Republican members of Congress have spoken out against him, they've gone ahead and voted along party lines anyway.

@Hinoron Weeeell, that Clinton thing wasn't about the interaction between a penis and a mouth but about perjury.
On the positive side, Trump could be impeached at any time because of the way he didn't separate himself from his business (well, I'm no constitutional lawyer - or American - but it's been suggested a lot when he started his presidency). On the negative side, they probably won't (unless something dramatic happens).

@VeryCreativeName

Well the perjury was that Bill Clinton denied the affair he had with the intern.
He didn't lie about having dealings with the Russians - he lied about having an affair.
Which is understandable from a human point as he obviously didn't want to admit having an affair as he was married.

Now affairs are something lot's of presidents have had throughout history, but the Republicans only tried to make a political case of it after they failed to prove any other wrongdoing on Bill Clinton's part.
They spent years claiming all manner of illegal actions by the Clinton's (and they still do - even if they can't prove any of it) - but in the end that lie from Bill Clinton about the affair was the only thing they could ever prove.

So the Republicans applied a standard that had never been applied to presidents before in their attempt to smear Bill Clinton, while they now look the other way as Trump endanger the nation on a daily basis.

So they're clearly applying completely different standards and it's blatantly political.

@Nisse_Hult
Amazing are the people who pursue such politics! Apparently, there is an astounding quantity of money to be made holding onto near-total political power by whatever corrupt or hypocritical means it may take. Probably more importantly in the psyche of the politician, there may be an astounding amount of social status for those who hold that power so firmly.

@niauropsaka

They're living in an alternate reality - that's the psychological explanation, anyway.

Deep down they actually know their policies will screw up the nation and ordinary people, but they also know these policies benefits themselves immensely personally, so to live with themselves they lie to themselves.

And construct this right-wing alternate reality where huge tax cuts for the rich and corporations will benefit the nation as a whole and ordinary citizen (despite it haven been PROVEN many different times that they actually don't).

And since they want the tax cuts and the conservative judges and everything else they hope to get with a republican president in office, they shut their eyes to the qualities of that president.

So they elected a man who's on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women, and they tried to elect a man credibly accused of sexually molesting young teenage girls.

It would be easy to call them simply evil or mentally ill - but most of them are in fact neither. They're simply in denial about reality and live instead in a fantasy world of their own creation where no bad thing any republican has ever done is real and the democrats are always pure evil.

That's the only way they can live with themselves, psychologically, I believe.

@VeryCreativeName The old guys doing it held a confessional later, where they confessed their own affairs and since they'd "come forward" and "were sorry," it somehow made it okay. It was covered in Newsweek? I think, at the time, and a few other sources.

That's kind of interesting, but as a side item sort of thing.

Mind, I've always held affairs were in poor taste, but assault/etc. is an entirely different level. The current president falls under the latter category. There was a stunning performance artwork where a young woman painted herself with the words the current president had used, often over the body part he was describing molesting. She would pose silently.

@Hinoron I was a kid back then but if I remember my history correctly, it was the Republicans who impeached Bill Clinton (a Democrat). It wasn't the voters who did it. In the end, it required 67 out of 100 senators to vote to remove him from office. Which they didn't get.

And to put a finer point on it. The Republican leaders who voted to impeach Clinton on "moral" grounds were all later found to have had extramarital affairs of their own. One of them was with 4 male students while he was teacher at a high school. So, yeah, with that level of hypocrisy going on, it is very unlikely that the Republicans will try to impeach one of their own.

@Breyson To think that's an image we'd have to earn back.

@Uniquitous Yep!

Good call, you're right it wouldn't have made as much sense. Happy to see America looking normal instead of like a rotting orange.