Good Business

Finns didn't welcome Christianity with open arms at first. Back in the day Finland was part of Sweden and the Swedish crown sent many holy men for crusades across Finland to convert ordinary folk to Christianity. There's a famous legend about peasant named Lalli who got angry and killed one of these swedish bishops. Lalli is often referred as a freedom fighter and a hero, not a murderous pagan, as you might think. In fact he is so popular in his home town that they have a statue of him.

@Moonchild That is actually incorrect. I just read the newest Tiede magazine that Christianity was spread to Finland by vikings from _east_ (yes, there were some vikings in Russia too). The convertion was pretty peaceful.

Reasearchers believe that Lalli was actually a Christian. Swedish crown sent holy men because Finland was not really part of Sweden yet. After the "crusades". Sweden claimed Finland as its land.

@Titiuu Christianity was spread to Finland from both east and west. Sweden did crusades in Finland.

Jesus and Thor's protection? Well, I know what I need for Christmas!

and with 'gentle' you mean that heathen priests were slowly drowned and horribly tortured.

One more reason why christan churches should be banned.

@humanbychoice Oh and you heathens were so gentle with us CHristians. Hanging our priests so they could be eaten by crows as a tribute to your one-eyed warmonger god? Burning monks alive in their monasteries? Raping women? Enslaving children? Any of that sound familiar heathen? And about that banning us idea of yours-there are two billion of us, and hardly a million of you. Don't imagine you can do anything to us.

'@TheChief'
Are you seriously defensively arguing against dead pagans from like 1000 years ago you friggin' wierdo lol.
Also if you're using a pope avatar I take it your catholic. In which case given that you're a wierdo shouldn't you also be railing against the takeover of Scandinavia and north Germany by horrible terrible Lutherans?

@sagas This one said Christian churches ought to be banned. Should I not be offended by that?

'@TheChief'
Yeah he's also an idiot. Your reaction was stupid in the other direction though.

@sagas How do you figure that?

'@TheChief'
That's what my first post was about lol.

@sagas What does "stupid in the other direction" mean? And where did you learn to speak English?

'@TheChief'
Being good at english =/= Being an autistic technician about language.
I'm sort of baffled about having to explain that phrase to you.

@sagas That's "speaking English well" not "being good at English".
It doesn;t make sense. Explain.

'@TheChief'
So I take it you don't speak English, you seem to have learned it from a book in a cabin in the woods.

@sagas I was joking on the first thing.
"Stupid in the other direction" doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

'@TheChief'
You didn't call him simply an idiot, you instead began basically mimicking him except from the hostile Christian side of this non-conflict.

@sagas Calling someone an idiot isn't a legitimate argument. Pointing out the hypocrisy of their point of view is. Though the idea of a legitimate argument is subjective.

@TheChief Well, aren't you a little religious fanatic.

@Nuit How do you figure that one?

@TheChief Like christians didn't do that to anybody... Don't get so awfully offended for things your religion has done aswell. Somehow I'm not really surprised about where you are from...

@Tanoth Explain to me exactly where I denied that Christians did anything wrong.

@TheChief i will take 100 vikings with me to battle any day over 10.000 conscripts. A fighting force that does not only laugh at death in battle, but celebrates it as basically a VIP Card into Valhalla is a VERY dangerous fighting force. you cant hit the morale at any point. Wars are won in the will and the Heart. a true viking with laugh in your face as he is bleeding out all the while praising the fact, that there WAS someone that could send him to live with the gods. also: Odin was more than a warmongerer. he was, as you point out, god of war. but also god of visdom, rune magic, royal powers (for chieftians) and bardic abilities. all of the old gods has multiple roles to fill out. you re making a very Deep culture (which is also 34000 years older than christianity, one might add) and making it into this crude barbarian mishmash... no offence inteded m8

@TheBrewer
1) In 34000 B.C. people hadn't yet emerged from caves.
2) You ignore the fact that this guy was arguing for the banning of Christianity.

@TheChief i meant it purely as fun fact. another couple of fun facts: some members of the Cro-Magnon people (the "original" cave dwellers) did in fact build small dirt Hurts with mammoth tusks as bearing corner elements in semi-submerged huts built halfway into the ground. bear in mind this was 250.000 years ago. though it should be said that this happened mostly on the great planes with a lack of natural caves. and personally, while i may be a "godless pagan" :P i do not want christianity banned. as a religion it has a lot to offer. some people ( and with this i mean only a few extremists) should not read it so litterally but rather use it as a guide for inspiration just like i do with the hávamál. the Word is not law but the Word CAN guide

@TheChief humans have been around since 250.000 years BC. so assuming they hadnt crawled out of the caves 34.000 BC is a bit much dont you think??? how many civilizations have not been destroyed by mankind throughout time??? and its besides the point. your argument is that because they hadnt crawled out of the caves yet, they simply could not believe in the Nordic gods??? come on my friend

@TheBrewer The Nordic culture hadn't developed yet and therefore the Nordic gods could not have been worshipped.

@TheChief it was not known as Nordic culture back then. but the story of Odin dates back 36000 years. only one man left in all of Scandinavia (and the World for that matter) that has ever learned the story as it has been passed Down through the generations in its unedited form (as much as is possible when we are talking about a legend being passed from guardian to guardian) anyways. the fact that the story has been around for so long speaks for itself. so would you kindly, good sir, stop trying to belittle my glorious ancestors and the sacred stories which i hold holy??? just as i in turn are respecting your religion. the Gods know there is more than plenty material in the christian faith to heckle it.

@TheBrewer In 34000 BC the Americas had hardly even been settled yet. Scandinavia as an idea didn't exist yet. Where do you get this idea of cavemen worshipping Odin? And nothing in my religion

@TheChief cavemen??? you do know that humanity has been around on this planet for roughly 250.000 years. are you honestly telling me that from around 250.000 BC and 34.000 BC there was no Progress AT ALL with humanity??? i dont buy it. im part of an amateur archeologi Group and i can sy with certainty that humanity was way more advanced at that point than we give them credit for.

@TheBrewer http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120123152528.htm
We hadn't even domesticated dogs yet! Where are you getting the idea that any recognizable culture had developed yet? It was only a thousand years earlier that people actually began depicting people in their paintings! How could any civilization formed then have been existent up to the second millennium AD?

@TheChief http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/5/prweb8364968.htm the carving in the picture is 1000 years older than the skull in your article. clearly showing a dedication to art. for art to flourish there needs to be a surplus of shelter, clothes, food and other people. in short, a civilization. have you read "clan of the cave bear" or any of the following books in the "children of the earth" series???

also. the earliest stone tools found by archeologists dates back around 2.6 million years ago when Homo Habilis used pebble stone choppers made out of round pebbles that had been split by a simple strike. back then they believed in a "great Mother" (i.e the earth) that provided everything they needed from caves for shelter to animals for fur and food. at least thats what our find indicate.

@TheBrewer The point is that the Norse gods were not, in fact, worshipped by cave people. None of this argues that fact or anything else I have stated.

@TheChief true that. but it also shows that the human race as we know it is so much older then most believe. and believe me when i say, 36000 years ago. odin worship was a real thing.

@TheBrewer What proof do you have of that allegation?

@TheChief an educated guess combined with my knowledge of history, my experiences as an amateur archeologist and the research i have done, hich is mostly based around the Icelandic Saga's, the Edda's and the likes.

@TheBrewer And what in the sagas, or in any research have you found evidence the Norse gods were worshipped by cavemen?

@TheChief well, i have not found any evidence that Odin was worshipped 250.000 years ago. but on Iceland lives and an old man. he is the last person on this planet to have the original story handed to him orally through the ages, dating back 36.000 years. you can go see him yourself. i visited him when i went to see the new temple for the Aesir gods. it was a truly beautiful moment. the first temple in a 1000 years to be build in their honor.

@TheBrewer
1) Catholics can't enter non-monotheistic places of worship.
2) What did he tell you in this story?

@TheChief the story is not for me tell to others. you can go find him yourself. and why cant catholics enter a place where more than one deity is worshipped?? to my understanding the catholics can attend any kind of ceremony they want from any religion. they are just not allowed to take part in the communion. but in all seriousness. after looking through some of your comments on other comics and taking a long hard look at the way you argue, i wonder why you biblebash people?? because it seems to be a kind of "red line" for you. im not trying to make an attack out of it, but it DOES make me wonder what your agenda is. and taking your 17 years of age into consideration it COULD seem as though you have a fanatical mindset that is locked in its way of seeing things. which is never a good thing, especially not for a christian. i was a christian myself, (protestant) and the only difference between them and catholics is they see the words of Jesus as metaphors rather than direct orders. fo example: Jesus told Peter "Thou art Rock, and upon this Rock, I build my church". Protestants believe that Jesus meant "Your name is peter, and upon faith I'll build my church". basically only difference between Catholics and Protestants. but im getting off track. what i really want to know (and this just dawned on me now) is why you seem to have such a huge problem with the religion i chose to identify myself with.

@TheBrewer Because Catholics don't believe in more than one God.
Who have I biblebashed?! When people insult my religion, I defend it.
My "agenda" is the defense of my faith from those who attack it.
How has anything I've done been remotely fanatical? When I get pissed of by people bashing Christianity? When I'm outraged by someone saying Chrisitanity should be banned? When someone suggests their country is inherently better because there are no religious people? How in God's Name is that fanatical?
No that is most certainly NOT the difference between Catholics and Protestants. We believe that the Pope the head of the Church, appointed to said office by Christ Himself. We also beleive the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of Christ through our faith. We venerate the Virgin Mother of God, Mary, and we believe in salvation through good works.
When have I expressed any issue with your beliefs? I can't say i think much of them, but that has never been the point of contention. You alleged that the Nordic religion was some insanely old age, bac, I think, before people came to North America. I refuted it for the obvious reason that it's wrong. That is all.

@TheChief you agenda throughout all of this has been to tell me im wrong and that you are right. you have brought up your own god multiple times as a "counter" to my norse belief. and you refuted my claim because it messes with your perception of the world. as for the fanatical part: when people say they have a better country than you, and you know its not true, as a christian you should turn the other cheek. when they bash your religion you should love them. at least according to the word of Jesus. when you rage against it its pride talking, and pride is on of the 7 sins. if they say christianity should be banned??? you church tried to ban MY religion in the days of old. people kept worshipping them. that is what would happen should it by some freak accident be banned.
" I refuted it for the obvious reason that it's wrong." those were your words. what is your proof of this?? i have done studies, talking to idk how many people, i work as an amateur archeologist in my spare time. what im trying to say is that they date i stick to (36000 years old) is based on more than just hearsay. but im curious. how do you KNOW that it is wrong??

concerning the difference between protestants and catholics. we see it as more of a symbol than the actual blood of christ. to me, that would turn it into some kind of bizarre flirting with cannibalism.
Protestants also venerate Mary, but only as the mother of christ. and lastly, Are you saying that protestants DOESN'T believe in salvation through good work???

on an off note, how can the pope be appointed to the office by god himself when he is elected by popular vote amongst the cardinals when the old one dies?? no offence intended, i really want to know.

@TheBrewer ) Why is it that people believe Christians have to be pussies? Jesus said turn the other cheek once, and it doesn't even mean what you think it does.
You mean beyond the fact that these stories supposedly predate most if not all forms of written language, and the fact the sagas of Norse mythology were not written down until after the 1st millennium A.D.? Not much.

Someone who worships a bunch of giants who live on the branch of a tree above our own position on said tree is criticizing ME for religious symbolism?
No, they do not. If they do not acknowledge her position in Our Lord's Plan whatever they do beleive about her is irrelevant.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Only the Catholic Church believes good works bring you into Heaven. Proddies believe it is from faith alone.

@TheChief to me (and many, many other asatru) the great tree ygdrasil is a metaphor for the nine planes (or realms if you will) of existence, and no, its not worshipping giants. the Ice giants (or Jotun, if you want to use the correct term) are the enemies of the Aesir, the gods of Valhal and protectors of mankind. by Tors beard, your own christmas is stolen from the pagans up north. originally called yule. and why is it so hard to believe that stories can survive for that long?? the worship of the planet as a great mother providing for her children (all living beings, human and animal alike) survived back from the stone age. and that was 250.000 years ago. today she is called Gaia but the belief is identical. and the Saga's was not witten until several hundreds years after the Viking Age. and they were written based on the stories that kept being told from mouth to mouth. heck, i still tell tales about the great warriors of old whenever kids and adults wants to hear them. in any case it has about as much credibilty as a man going to a mountain ALONE to speak with a god that would only speak to him when he was alone. kinda reminds of the mormons history now that i think about it..
And yes he said turn the other cheek. but never once is it mentioned in the bible that it was only once.
and how can say that about protestants (at least use the correct term instead of "proddies". im not calling Catholics "Catties" am i now??) when you dont even enter their churches?? how can you claim any knowledge on a subject you yourself said you are not allowed to be part of or even witness.
"Only the Catholic Church believes good works bring you into Heaven" that right there is spoken like a fanatic. and protestants put as mcuh emphasis on good deeds as catholics. a true difference, however, is that the protestants does not see it as a holy gesture to give money to the church. they work instead. helping with repairs to churches, feeding the homeless and providing care and comfort for those who seek it. if you dont believe me, come to denmark and in Copenhagen alone i will show you at least 30 different organizations all trying to improve the life of the homeless with your christian god as inspiration. and all doing it for free, out of love for their fellow man.

on a side note: dude, i have no beef with you, i really dont mind what you believe, how and why. what concerns me though, is your attitude at the age of 17. you ramble off dogma from a church instead of using logic and reasoning, you show a fanatical belief in a church that has been proven to lie, cheat, steal, murder and even molest children through the ages. you want more proof of fanatical thoughts from you?? "If they do not acknowledge her position in Our Lord's Plan whatever they do beleive about her is irrelevant". spoken like the islamists in denmark wanting sharia law under the pretext that "Allah is the one and only god and any who does not believe it is a heathen and that persons meaning or opinion has no value what so ever". you are doing the EXACT same thing, just in the name of your lord. where did the love and respect for your fellow man go??? isnt that the, you know, CORE of christian belief?? but im trailing off here. im just worried about you my friend. your horizon is very limited. i can only hope that with age comes wisdom.

@TheBrewer My point was it was complete bullshit to take something from Genesis completely seriously when your own religion has something like that on it.
In Jewish culture, one would strike a person in a certain way. By turning the other cheek, they would hurt themselves more than the one being struck. Our Lord was preaching about the self-destructiveness of vengeance, not advocating suicidal pacifism.
1) The proper term would be "Papes".
2) Do you honestly think I've never studied the Protestants? That they teach us nothing of them? They have. And the bottom line is this: they do things one way, and we disagree with the way they do it. And I said Catholics cannot take part in non-monotheistic services. Protestants are monotheists. -_-
Are you really so ignorant to the facts of the religion you claim to have been part of? Sola Fide (FAITH ALONE), written by Martin Luther-the man whose name IS IN YOUR FORMER RELIGION'S- argued that faith alone was necessary into Heaven. Don't fucking lecture me before you understand the first thing about the theology you're defending.

How have I ignored any reason or logic? What MENTION have I made of dogma? You make outrageous claims without so much as the slightest bit of evidence, yet I'm illogical. Get off your goddamn soap box.
WISDOM?! You have demonstrated a complete and utter lack of comprehension of anything I have said! You know nothing of Christian theology and yet you see fit to deny the CORE PROTESTANT BELIEF of Sola Fide IN DEFENSE OF PROTESTANTISM! You DO NOT get to lecture me on wisdom.

@TheChief where is it said or written that you cannot attend a Protestant sermon?? please provide evidence. and while vengeance CAN be self destructive, when mixed with restraint and logic, it can be the greatest tool to restore your honor. and if he was NOT promoting suicidal pacifism, please explain why he accepted to be killed on the cross. if you say he did it so he could die for our "sins" please explain the need for need to be judged by Saint Peter upon death, seeing as Jesu apparently alredy died for our sins, and therefore there should be no need to judgement.
and yes, protestant are monotheists. so are you, technically, as you have the son of god, the mother of the son of god, and god. Jesus and Mary are recognizeda s people. polytheism is mainly seen in the hindu, buddhist, egyptian, greek and Asatru. and while Martin Luther DID believe in faith alone, that is not what is preached in denmark. (then again, we also have priests openly admitting to not be christian and just seeing it as a job)

"If they do not acknowledge her position in Our Lord's Plan whatever they do beleive about her is irrelevant." if this is not religious dogma, i dont know what is.

i know the christian theology i have been taught in denmark. again you come across as a person dealing with n indoctrnating church. what happens here is not what you have been told, so therefore i must be lying and/or utterly insane. can you really not see this??? like i said before, you are only 17. you will learn to look at the grey blurred lines in time and not see the world as black and white. to put things in perspective: christianity worldwide has more than 20.000 (twenty THOUSAND!!) different branches today, all with their own stories, interpretations of the bible, customs and beliefs (within the christian sector of religion of course). what that in mind, is it REALLY so hard to believe that we are not being taught what you are being told we are being taught??? or is this just me showing more lack of comprehension for a religion that has been more twisted and perverted through the ages than any other?? you decide. in any case. to go back to the original topic. Odinism (as it is popularly called) has been around for roughly 36.000 years (give or take a few hundred) and so predates most (if not all) modern religions still functioning.

@TheBrewer I should say up front your uncompromising ignorance to anything resembling theology is terribly irksome. Also, the fact that you don't seem to reading what I'm saying AT ALL is pissing me right the fuck off.

Catechism.
"Honor"? Really?
He was killed on the cross because someone had to bear the sins of the penitent. ONLY the penitent. And St. Peter doesn't judge the people as they reach the pearly gates, that's just the usual artistic depiction.
The Trinity is Christ, God the Father and the Omnipresent spirit of God.
Yes, but the issue is Mary is regarded only as a person-just another saint. She was a woman born without sin second only to Christ Himself in those who've walked the Earth.
Why are you explaining polytheism? I clearly know the difference between monotheism and polytheism.
You don't have priests. You have ministers and even for Protestants they are affronts to the word "Christian".

Explain how that contradicts logic, or is similar to Mohammedans trying to impose sharia law?

I am going to answer to that last paragraph as simply as possible,
1) EXPLAIN. Where and how have I done or said anything that shows ignorance or lack of comprehension? What have I said that denies the existence of grey lines? When have I accused you of lying? Explain or leave it the fuck be.
2) Where do you get the idea that your religion is older than the Pyramids? I know my religion begins in the 1st century A.D. because a) the writings of Josephus place his birth there. 2) the accounts of a noteworthy Roman archivist records having seen Our Lord perform a miracle and c) the entire time line is based around His birth. Whatsmore, how am I ignorant for not believing you? Your sagas were not written until a thousand years after Our Lord's birth. I know the Norse religion is descended from the Indo-Aryan proto-religion that also spawned ancient Hinduism because of what scientists and historians teach us.
3) In regards to you remark about my religion being twisted and corrupt: FUCK YOU.
4) Your religion in not the original Norse pantheon. Yours is BASED off of their religion, but it is not the same. The culture that it was intrinsically connected to has changed too much for you to claim it as the same.

@TheChief lets start with the corrupted Catholic religion. the Vatican has a whole administrative section that works with one thing and one thing only. to move pedo priests around to new ares where they are not known. that should about be enough to to prove my point. if not, the Vatican has imposed its own law on its land. no denying that. but getting mixed up in the law means getting in to politics. and i DO believe that it was Jesus that said "the day that the church and politics gets mixed together, the church is a whore".
And i already explained to you why i believe that my old Norse religion is more than 36000 years old. and where do you get the idea that Indo-Aryan people are the original creaters of the the belief system that?? the Indo-Aryan countries include India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Burma, the Maldives and some more (those mentioned all have a population over 300.000 people) that is a shot in the dark. you MIGHT be thinking about the Proto-Indo-European countries. and no scientist has EVER made the claim that Indo-Aryan is the area that Odinism stem from. norse mythology is my study. since i was 6 have i been studying them. thats 22 years running. and i only learn more the deeper i dig.
and im sorry, but we dont have priests???? are you serious??? go to denmark and try to ask ANY priest in a church. the title kinda goes with job dude. and in denmark we dont have a difference between ministers and priests in our vocabulary. so good luck mate.
and while the names of my old gods may have changed, the worship has not. sure Odins original name was Wotan and Tors original name was Donar. but the belief is the same. and your lack of comprehension is evident whenever you speak out about something that contradicts the beliefs you have been spoonfed. because you were not taught that, i am the one in the wrong (mark you, this is the second time im writing this. please understand it now) and you dont see the grey lines. just look at how you constantly pick and choose when the bible is litteral and when it is a metaphor. and you accuse me of lying in every reply. first im ying about the dates, then im lying about origins, then im lying about the catholic church being corrupt (which is no big secret dude. come on. be realistic) the list goes on.
and btw its funny how my meeting with and old man in Iceland and hearing the original story of Odin is not credilble evidence, but your roman archivist is complety fine as a credible source......... see what i mean religious dogma??
And yes. Honor. i only have 2 things with me when i enter this life. my word and my honor. im not breaking them for anyone. i am reminded of Vincent Elun's words: "My name is not my own, it is borrowed from my Ancestors. I must return it unstained.
My honor is not my own. It is on loan from my ancestors. I must give it to them unbroken.
Our blood is not our own. It is a gift to generations yet unborn. We should carry it with responsibility."
BTW. only the penitent??? what do you have to be penitent for?? living the life that "god" bestowed onto you?? let me tell you something about MY way of honoring the gods. when its time for the Solstice sacrifice (in the modern day its only symbolic and no animals or humans are harmed in the process) we live life in every way we can. we get drunk, we eat until we feel like bursting, we "sleep around" to honor the gods and goddesses of love, we basically INDULGE. because what better way to honor the life you were given by the gods then by LIVING IT. i dont know if you can see where im coming from here, and if you cant i feel sorry for you. but the simple logic MUST be doing something for you. otherwise there is no hope at all.
peace and good growth to you.

@TheBrewer That is abso-fucking-lute bullshit! What proof do you have? None because as i said it is bullshit.
You didn't explain why you believe the religion is that old and what reason it is based off of.
From what I have read on Norse mythology your religion is descended from the same one as what was taught by the Brahmans in India in ancient times.
Indian alone has a population of one-and-a quarter billion.
Christian clergymen are only priests when coming from the Catholic Church or the Eastern orthodoxy. They have to be educated from a seminary, derive power from the Pope or a Patriarch and cannot marry (in the Eastern Rite, they cannot marry as priests, but married men can take the vows). Your clergy, by your own admission, are barely even Christian. I doubt they'll much care if I object to their title.
That sentence makes no sense whatsoever, What don't I comprehend? What have I said that abjures reason or the existence of moral grey areas? Nothing I've objected to about your religious claims is based off of my religion (the failure of Protestants to venerate Our Lady notwithstanding). It is the same you would here from an atheist about your religion.
No, I don't see what you mean about religious dogma. The man wasn't a Christian and it was the 1st century A.D. I don't see where you're getting the idea this has anything to do with dogma. Or how that even qualifies as dogma.
I'm reminded of the words of G.R.R. Martin "Damn stiff-necked fool...too proud to listen. Can you eat pride... Will honor shield your children?'"
God give not give us life to louse about and degrade His world. You boil your brains in drink, leave yourself gasping for breath with food stuffed down your gluttonous gullets and desecrate His gift of your bodies by fucking like a bunch of damned filthy animals. That's not living life, that's running away from the responsibilities and the duties that come with it, rather seeking the comforts of the flesh and material. If anything, that's a crime against the abstract honor you hold so dear.
I am a sinner. Same as every other to walk on the face of this Earth. But unlike you I seek to better myself, to improve the world He gave us rather than succumb to the material debauchery as our forebearers did.
What simple logic? That because your "gods" gave you your bodies, your ought to use them living trash receptacles? That degrading them is some form of worship? If it were simply a matter of you having a different religion, I wouldn't care. But you revel in your own ignorance. You ignore any and all reason yet find the audacity to lecture me about concepts completely beyond your ken. I can't claim that I know for certain what made the cosmos, but it didn't intend us to live like beasts.

@TheChief i have explained several times why i believe my religion to be that old. but you seem to have forgot it. go through my earlier posts and you will see. and you do not present me with logic. you present me with the same rules and laws that catholics and christians have been using to murder, burn, maim, torture invade and enslave other people with for over 1000 years in the name of a god that preaches love and understanding.
and if you are looking for religious dogma, look at the last 3rd of your last post. you even go as far as saying i live like a beast and use my body as a "trash receptacle". because i live a different way compared to you.
and i have spoken with people from all over the world about my religion. only 2 types of people ever get angry at me for not believing the same as them. Catholics and Muslims. think about that for a second.
and instead of living my life, would you rather have me starve myself, deprive myself the company of a warm and willing female that seeks the comfort of embrace in the dark of winter or the light of summer? would you have me live life like a priest, condemning other people for the life he is not allowed to live himself?? do you see the hypocracy at play here?
and revel in my own ignorance??? again the religious dogma. because i am not christian and think as such, im ignorant. i ignore "reason" (the ramblings of a book written by man about 2000 years ago)

i said it before, i will say it again. you are only 17 and as such cannot be expected to see the grey areas of religion. lets compare it to a booming industry. the diamond industry. everywhere we see commercials for them, telling us how much we can show our love with them. when in truth, the owners of the biggest (and only company with the rights to sell diamonds) have been quoted in saying "they are actually worthless and would be used better in tools". the same goes for most religions. what they really need is the only currency that really matters on a global scale. people. the human farm needs to grow. but im getting ahead of myself here. look at your own church. in the catholic church you can buy a piece of paper that guarantees you a place in heaven, no matter you crimes. so apparently YOUR salvation is obtainable to all people with enough cash. that is a serious grey area that people tend to forget about. you included.

@TheBrewer You have COMPLETELY forgotten the point of this argument. You said that Norse heathenry is thirty-six thousand years old. It is not. At most, it is three thousand years old. Why do i know that? Not because of the Church. Not because of the Bible. Because I have even the most basic understanding of history.
None of this has to do with my religion. It has to do with you being an arrogant, condescending, ass.

@TheChief you have understanding of history?? do you have any idea how many civilizations have been forgotten and how advanced they were technology wise? i use my spare time as an amateur archeologist. and i can saefly say, that with your statement, you have no grasp what so ever on any history apart from the newest one (the last 2000 years) and you are merely stating big fights between gods and beasts. remember jormungandr is the serpent given birth to by Angerboda and Loki together with the 2 other offspring, the Fenris Wolf and Hel, ruler of Hel, the plane you go to if you do not die in combat. and no. i havent forgotten my claim that it is roughly 36000 years old. our archeological finding points at something like 300 years before the viking age officially "started" but the stories that are being handed down from generation to generation, from father to son. they indicate something more like 36000 years. and personally, i stick with the stories of old. i dig the eart myself for the forgotten past. but i still put my faith in the stories.

its funny how i am the condesending one, when you are the one to call me beast, savage, ignorant and even a living trash receptacle.

but i just thought of something. you wrote earlier that you are a sinner as are all people on the planet according to your religion, and you have to have faith and do good to attone for that. my thought here was. didnt Jesus die on the cross for you sins?? if so, what is the point of calling yourself a sinner and, if not, why do you say he died for your sins??? seems like quite the paradox mate.

@TheBrewer Everything I've said is what is backed up by most modern historians and scientists (except the stuff about Marian veneration but that's a different topic). Everything I've read on the topic argues that the various religions in the Near East adn Europe are descended from the Indo-Aryan proto religion-yours included.
Oh, but I'm stupid for believing the Bible. Perfectly reasonable to believe something based on the fact SOMEBODY TOLD YOU SOMETHING but believing a two-millennia old tradition? Completely unreasonable.
Why? Why do you stick to the "stories of old"? Not why do you believe the Norse heathenry-I don't give a fuck about that. Why do you choose to believe these old traditions-which contradict EVERY legitimate book on the subject-as to how old your religion is?

You eat drink and fuck like there's no tomorrow. That makes you little better than an animal.

Not really. The only way to be purified of our sins is to bear our cross like Jesus bore His.

@TheChief if the only way to purify yourself is to bear the cross like he did, why did he have to die for your sins???

and dont even try to tell me the bible is not contradicting itself. we both know it does on more occasions than i can count.

and when you ask me why i stand fast in my belief of the old gods, would it not be reasonable to ask you the same?? i do it because its part of my cultural heritage, in my mind it makes more sense, and i can better identify with the old gods. they are more human than you might suspect. why do you believe in your sloppy seconds cult?? Silly Christian:
Christmas was Solstice,
Easter was Ostara (the spring equinox),
Halloween was Samhain,
May day was Beltane,
Tuesday was Tyr's (Tiw's) day,
Wednesday was Woden's (Odin's) day,
Thursday was Tor's day,
Friday was Freya's day,
Saturday was Saturn's day (roman),
Sunday was the sun' day
and Monday was the moons day.

your religion has borrowed from everywhere to make sure people didnt reject it. straight up brainwashing and indoctrination. that is my primary reason for believing in the gods of old. In Asatru, what you believe truly doesnt matter, as long as you dont try to enforce upon others. and that, my friend, is something christianity has done and IS STILL DOING.
can i have an answer as to why you believe in the christian cult or will you slide past it like you have dont with most of the things i have asked that contradicts the beliefs you have been spoonfed??

and there you go again. calling me the equivilent of an animal because i live a different life compared to you. you even go so far as to call me a heathen. a term that, frankly, would do better in the times of the inquisition than in modern society. none the less, i wear that term proudly.
and why shouldnt i live life like that?? the only thing i can be 100% certain will happen in this life, is that i will leave it again. why not enjoy the life the gods have given me, and honor them by experiencing everything good that life has to offer, instead of repenting imaginary sins as laid down by the omnipotent old man in the sky, that loves you and forgives all, unless you break his 10 rules, in which case you will be cast into a place of pain and anguish and fear and misery for eternity. you see where im going with this???

and by the way...... why do you keep going back to EASTERN europe??? we are talking northen europe here dude. if you want to talk eastern europe you gotta remember that much of it was settled by wandering northfolk way back in the day. part of the russian populaton, or the "Rus" people, originated from danish, swedish and norwegian vikings that populated the area in search of rare pelts for hunting. you need to get your history right.

@TheBrewer To allow us the chance to redeem ourselves.

Not the parts you're supposed to believe.

We put events relevant to our faith on dates relevant to the converted culture. It's not stealing anything, it's just smart.

I believe for two reasons: 1) It makes a whole damn lot more sense than a belief system that doesn't actually require you believe in something-such as you claim heathenry does. 2) The Holy Catholic Church has done more good for all Mankind than ANY other institution in all of Human history. Every scientific, cultural and intellectual advancement since the fall of the Roman Empire is directly related to the Church's preservation of the knowledge that would otherwise have been lost-especially thank to the predations of you predecessors in Heathenry.
I haven't slid past anything. I've answered everything you've asked that's of any consequence.

I don't mind that you live differently. I mind you unbearable arrogance and how you laud your complete lack of any morals or boundaries as the apex of humanity. If you proudly use the word why are you bitching that I used it?
You don't merely enjoy, you disgrace it in excess.

You idiot, the population of modern Europe got there from the east when the Indo-Aryans migrated out of central Eurasia. Same story as the population of India.

@TheChief the catholic church behind every scientific, cultural and intellectual advencement since the roman times??? you DO know that the church actively supressed science and education during the dark age of christianity right??? they put us into a scientific stagnation that lasted 1000 years. and preserving knowledge??? so book burnings, the execution of people that had controversial ideas AND the fact that christian people are some of the most conservative in the world. that doesnt tell you what you need to know about your church's history???
and if you think the vikings were a backwards people then you REALLY need to study your history better. for starters they invented the basic principles behind shipbuilding that is still used to this day just to mention a single thing.

and "not the parts you are supposed to believe"??? i thought you couldnt pick and choose what you believed from the bible. you are either in or out.

and it IS stealing. it was the only way to brainwash entire populations to think that your god was the right choice. and for a peaceful god there was a hell of a lot of killing of people that didnt want to convert. how very christian.

and unbearable arrogance??? you have belittled me, resorted to name calling, blatantly ignored every fact that goes against the churches teachings and written it off as the ramblings of a mad man and yet IM the arrogant one.
and yes, i use the word proudly. that doesnt mean you get that same privilege. just like i cannot be buried in christian soil when i die.

and what do you know of my morals and boundaries?? i suspect i have a higher evolved moral than you. at least if i insult people i stand by it. i dont hide it behind fancy rhetoric and pretend it never happened.

and it makes more sense... the god that loves you and forgives all but will still condemn you to an eterniy of suffering should you slip up.
and you seem to have misunderstood what i meant when i said it truly doesnt matter what you believe to an asatru. i would love to educate you on the subject but i fear it is a lost cause.

and btw. why should you need to redeem yourself in the eyes of your god, if his son already died for your sins???

and to say i disgrace is to harsh. you dont know me, you have never seen how i live my life and therefore you cant really judge. i think you view me as a sad excuse for something that should be buried and forgotten. i can proudly say that i see you this way. you embody the worst part of christianity. the bigotry, the hatred, the refusal that anything other than what you have been taught can be true and judgemental nature of the hypocritical priests of old.

you claim to be a christian and yet you keep acting like a non christian. at least i cannot act like a non asatru unless i run from battle. which is less than likely, seeing as death in battle would immideately grant me acces to Valhal.

anyways, there is no arguing with you. when you get presented with something you dismiss it right away because there is no way you could be wrong. that is the core of my earlier statement about you still being 17. with age comes wisdom. you cannot rush it

@TheBrewer Bullshit. The "Dark Ages" are so-called because the creators of the Renaissance wanted their work to seem that much more enlightened. The Church didn't suppress anything-they were the only people who could preserve the knowledge of the Romans. That stagnation occurred because your filthy heathens destroyed any traces of civilization, breaking any link the people had to the knowledge of the Romans.
They also destroyed the last vestiges of the Roman culture in western Europe, causing the stagnation you erroneously put on the Holy Church.

Again you demonstrate you know absolutely nothing about theology of any sort.

Again, a heathen has no right to lecture others about religious killings.

Your "facts" are either blatantly wrong or completely irrelevant! And yes, I call it arrogance that you are proud of the fact that you treat your body like a trash receptacle. You haven't said anything that truly poses a real question to the faith. Produce any question about my fiath and I will answer it.
You can't be buried in Christian soil because you aren't a Christian. Just like I wouldn't expect that upon my death to be given one of your heathen rituals.
It's a word. I will use it as it applies. Privilege or no.

I've never denied insulting you.

Not "slip up". Willingly reject Him.
I don't care. I have no issue with heathens. They are free to believe what they deem fit. However, when you insult my religion (as you have repeatedly done) or support a statement which is blatantly false (the 36000 years old garbage) we have an issue.

I have already explained this. Our Lord died that we may have a chance to enter Heaven. If we reject our chance at Heaven, we are guilty.

So the stuff you said about how you "celebrate" your "gods" was not in fact true? The excess? The whoring? None of that was true? if not than I owe you an apology. If you do, then I stand by what I said.
Where have I refused anything I've not been taught? WHat have you said that I have not argued against logically based on facts and my knowledge of the world? What's more, why I should I listen to some idiot on the Internet instead of the faith that has preserved civilization for two millennia and given me everything i know and hold dear?
That is not what I view you as. This has nothing to do with religion. THis has to do with one fact: You claimed that heathenry is 36000 years old. This is false. It has nothing to do with the religion itself, or the fact I do not ascribe to the religion. It has to do with the fact you're stupid enough to believe something so far-fetched, something that doesn't even have anything to do with the faith itself, but just a pointless exercise in your own arrogance. It also has to do with you turning an argument about something you can easily learn in any legitimate history textbook into a big theology showdown.

How do I act like a non-Christian? You insult my faith, I defend it. You say things that are BLATANTLY untrue, I refute them.

I don't "dismiss" anything. I make a counter argument, but you ignore it and I claim I don't answer you bullshit questions.
So it's because I'm younger than you that I can't see the truth in what you saying?If I were older, I would accept everything you say, despite it all being blatantly unscientific, and without any backing by any real sources? You are without doubt an arrogant sonofabitch.

@TheChief you stamp around in the same arguments over and over. you re-use whatever was said before as if the act of saying it twice makes it more true.
and you have no right to speak about religious killings. throughout history the church has killed in the name of a god that preaches love and understanding. we heathens have killed for our honor, protection and improvement of our own lives. at least we have been honest about why we did what we did.

but im done. this is going no where and you will continue to re-use you same arguments because that is what a book allows you to say if you want to go to "heaven". but being one of the sacred 144.000 does seem quite far fetched. seeing how long christianity has been around and the amount of people believing in it. but who am i to judge??? i stand by my statements about the age of Odinism. i have my experiences and my own eyes and ears to back up my claims. all you have is a 2000 year old book written by man, claiming it to contain the exact word of god.

and a final thought. the bible states that man was created in gods image. looking at the people of this world and how we treat eachother makes me think its a truly messed up god to worship.

@TheBrewer You're a goddamn hypocrite.
YOU are the one who brought it up. It doesn't matter what you kill for. At the end of the day both our religions have plenty of blood on their hands. The difference is that the Catholic Church has actually done some measure of good for Mankind as a whole, unlike your self-indulgent, wasteful Heathenry.

You are such a goddamn hypocrite it is almost unbelievable. You take a senile of shit's word over all science and believe in a race of warlords who live on the top of a tree-our world being at the midpoint of said tree-but my religion is nonsense. On top of the fact you have ignored every theological point I have raised demonstrates what an asshole you are.

For the final time-and if you take one thing from this discussion, learn this ONE STATEMENT I HAVE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES- Genesis. Is. Not. LITERAL.

@TheChief and one last thing. how can you, in you mind, make a connection between a Hindu god of peace and understanding, and the warrior culture/religion that is the scandinavian way?? none at all. trust me on this. there is NO connection between the two of them. of you believe that, im sorry to say, but you should get you school money back and buy more history lessons.

@TheBrewer They are both descended from the proto-religion practiced by the Aryans in Eurasia who eventually came to inhabit both Europe and India-and probably some other places.
The fact of the matter is that every ancient religion in Europe and proto-Hinduism are descended from it.
Zeus vs Typhon; Thor vs. jormungandr; Indra vs. Vrtra; Perun vs. Veles; Garshapp vs Zahhak;

@TheChief though i should mention that the Homo Habilis originated from what is now east africa.

@TheBrewer Humanity as a whole emerged from Africa

@humanbychoice Here it was decided by vote... The highest Astru priest slept on it, and made the decision. (Ok, his (and other´s) sons were in Norge and he knew that the men would be killed if he refused)...
but that was it in Iceland!

Proof that we Danes are secretly Geniuses.

Uuuuuhm.. What?!
From what I have learned, the Scandinavians did NOT gradually and gently transition from Aesir to Christianity. Quite the contrary! The Christians pretty much waged war on the Vikings and there was a lot of killing going on. Even after the Scandinavians succumbed and became Christians, anyone who showed any signs of believing in the "pagan" gods were executed/punished.

I've never heard of anyone turning the cross upside down to resemble Tor's hammer, but if that is true then I'd like some sources please! :P
(Tried to look it up myself but all I get is Christian symbolism)

@Kiwiaka The Christians waged war on everybody! Being gentle and subtle was never their strong point.

@Innanna Said the pot to the kettle.

@TheChief At least when Pagans invaded, they were honest about why they were invading; you had something they wanted. Simple as that. They didn't torture you and claim they were doing so because 'God loves you.'

@Innanna Big fucking difference.

@TheChief
It is a big difference. Pagan invaders allowed the population of the invaded area to keep their culture and sense of who they were, while christian invaders took away the important culture element wich is the religion, replacing it with their own, and a moral code wich inspires fear and shame for the natural things (such as sex and independence) that makes us human.

@Bloodblender They killed one another just the same and any excuses you can make is just trying to make a bad thing look decent.
Tolerant pagans? These same pagans that fed Christians to animals and burnt monasteries and butchered our clergy.
Shaming sex and independence? Where the fuck do you get that idea?

@TheChief
First of all, I dont mean that invading and killing is a good thing. That was not realy good, but christian invaders simply did more bad stuff then that.
Secondly, you are refering to paganism as if it is one thing, a religion in the same way christianity is one. However, paganism is not one religion, but but many religions who all have in common that they were prechristian. The lion feeding and so on wich you are refering to was performed in Rome, by roman pagans, not nordic ones. Also, the reason why the romans acted so harshly toward the early christians was not becourse that they had another religion, but becourse they spoke out and acted against the roman gods and customs, and through a growing popularity the christian cult also took away power from the local cult. Christianity was found to be a threat by the romans.
The nordic pagans, however, did not see christianity as a threat. The reasoning was: A new god? Well, why not? Unlike the romans, they did not fear their own gods, so why would they fear this new one?
It was not untill we had christian kings, who demanded that people stopped using magic and worshiping their old gods. that people realized that christianity was a threat to their culture and way of life. By then, however, it was too late.

Yep, a sense of shame for sex and independence. Read the letters, especialy those of Paulus, in the New Testament if you dont believe me. You can also read quite a bit about it if you study the history of christianity in Europe. Especialy the period between the Middle Ages and the Enlightment are full of examples.

I also get the impression that you have the far too common impression that nordic paganism was all about violence and conquest. That is simply not the case. The aesir stood for order, as opposition to the chaos of the natural world, while the vanir (the other god kind, of wich Njord, Frej and Freja was part) stood for fertelity and magic. There were also other beings wich were worshiped or otherwise taken into account, such as housegods, familygods, a big number of nature spirits and the dead of the family (ancestor worship). There was also a lot of magic use, especialy by the women known as 'völva' (weaver), wich was part of the religion just as much as the gods.

@Bloodblender 1) More rape and murder and pillage then the vikings? I doubt that. Very much.
2) The fact that they weren't a threat was the entire reason the heathen bastards attacked my forebears. Christians were a peaceful lot, especially the monks, and therefore were an easy targets for the predations of the Northmen.

Define " a sense of shame". You mean they didn't encourage rape and concubinage? And who the fuck are you to lecture someone about freedom? The VIkings were some of the biggest slave traders in history, right up there with the Triangle Trade Route in the New World.

...and Hitler made the trains run on time but that means sweet fuck all to those who died and suffered under him. My ancestors died at Clontarf to drive your heathens into the sea just as they did at Bannockburn with Edward the Murderer and Aughrim with the Orange Bastard.

@TheChief
You clearly dont understand what I wrote.
1) I didnt say that christians were responsible for more murder and rape then vikings. That was about the same. I meant that christian invaders did that as well, and put oppression to injury by destroying religion and adding a sense of shame of the things that make us human.
2) Some christians were peaceful, just as some heathen were peaceful, and raiders prefer soft and easy targets. More loot for less risk and effort. This is nothing that have anything to do with religion, but is simply rational thinking of the common pirate. However, the target of monesteries did have to do with religion, as raiders who were christian usuly were too afraid to call up on the wrath of their god by attacking a place hallowed to him. The vikings, however, did not fear their own gods, as fear was not part of their religion, so why would they fear somone elses god? For them it was just a soft and juicy target. If you wish to find examples of christians who were not peaceful, you can find plenty of them in about any history book. The differens between christianity and heathen religions is minimal in that regard.

By a sense of shame I mean the feeling of shame for feeling desire. Women, especialy, were discouraged to do so. I am not talking about rape or sexslavery, but the simple feeling, and acting, on mutual physical love. Concerning freedom I am refering to the freedom of the mind, the freedom of speaking and especialy feeling as you wish, without somone telling you that it was wrong, and tell you how to speak, think and feel instead.

Besides Hitler, I have no idea who those you bring up are. And as you are an american, I also dont know who your ancestors were. I dont get what you are hinting at here.
And what does Hitler have to do with this?

@Bloodblender You 're one to talk of not understanding.
1. Do you honestly think those HEathen savages were any more careful with the religion or the culture of those they victimized? THey didn't leave the culture alone out of any manner of tolerance, but rather their entire internal culture was focused on pillage and warfare.
2. I know of them.

What makes us human is not our animalistic desires but rather that we are capable of rising above them. Lust and such feelings are base desires that all creatures of this world save for us are salves to, and that is the reason we are the dominant species.

The point is no matter what aspects of Viking culture there were that doesn't really matter to those who suffered at their hands. They can be as kind and peace-loving as they want at home but when they're brutally murdering and pillaging in your lands what they do on their home turf doesn't count for anything.

@TheChief
1. They were not "more carful" about religion, that was not my point. In fact, they simply didnt care about what religion other people had, and that is why conquered peoples could keep up their religious traditions. It didnt bother scandinavians if their new citizens were christian, celtic, muslims, or whatever. And no, pillaging and waging war was not the entire internal culture, wich you would know if you had any deeper knowlage on the subject. There was violence in the culture, just as there was among the celts, romans and, yes, christians. I would recomend that you read up on the subject. In english there is the thesis The Viking Way, written by Neil S. Price, wich is well worth the read, and it is rather easy to read, even for those who are unfamiliar with scientific literature.
2. In that case you know why calling christians in generl peaceful dosent hold up. In the same way you cant name heathen as raiders in general.

So we are already there (altho many biologists would argue about the "dominant species" claim". Why try to put it to extremes? Why not just live and let live?
Desires may be a less dominant part of us humans, but that does not mean we should always push our desires aside. There is a major difference between denying yourself and others somthing, and another to learn to master your want for it. Instead of an ideal of celibasy, and allowing sex only for making children, all this put on a social level, why not let people be people? Some will seek to grow as individuals while others will not regardless of this, but there would be less feelings of shame for somthing that naturaly is part of who we are.

The vikings who raided many areas were, as I have already pointed out, no more violent then other (some of them christian) raiders of the time. They were simply more successful and didnt care if there were religious boundries of certain areas. Infact, their violence was nothing compared to what certain christians did during the third and fourth crussades. Besides the body count, the vikings at least didnt have the idea that all the murdering, raping and plunder would grant them 'forgiveness for their sins'.

@Bloodblender
1. What does Viking culture have to do with science? And I must reiterate I don't care what their culture was, anymore than those who suffered under them did.
2. Exactly how many charities are run by heathens? How many peace treaties have they negotiated? How many non-profit hospitals do they run? How many overseas aid services? How many orphanages? Adoption services? Colleges? How many?

We are arguably the dominant species, as we are the only sentient creatures on the face of the Earth, as well as the only creatures able to bend our environment to our own will. What does "live and let live" have to do with this?
You're saying people ought to be allowed to choose but vilifying Christians for making the choice that you don't personally hold with.

Does that matter? Does someone's motivations change what they did? If you kill a man just because youi wanted his money, not because of some religious belief, is that man any less dead?

@TheChief
1. Humanistic science is used for studiyng their culture, of course. And if you dont bother learning their culture, how can you judge them? Judging somthing without first trying to understand it first is, quite frankly, stupid.
2. If by heathen you here is refering to pre-christian ones, it is quite easy to say they run none, as they no longer exist. The religion is long dead, killed by christianity. There are attempts to resurect it, but as such it is just in the starting stages, and far too much knowlage have been lost, and nowdays the scandinavian gouverments and religiously unbound non profit organizations make the things on your list. If you, however, still are refering to heathen as some kind of general term for non christians, there are many examples of the items of your list being made reality by such. The most obvious examples are, of course, found in Asia, within buddhism and hinduism.

If you mean that being sentient is a qualification for being dominant, the sure, even tho many would say that there are other qualities, such as being evolutionary successful (like the crocodile), adaptable (cockroach) or having numerous sub species (beetle).
By live and let live in the context I mean that we should all be allowed to do our thing and find our own way, rather then somone trying to convonce you of changing religion, and then adding a sense of shame for somthing very human that is part of us all.
I dont mind people being christian, if it is by choice. What I am against is that christianity is a missionating and very jealus religion wich is focused on outcompeting other out of existance, and then adding a sense of shame as a side dish.

I still dont know what you are trying to point out here. What have Hitler to do with paganism and christianity? Nothing. But sure, the reasons why somone is killed dosent make anyone less dead, wich is a good enough reason why christianity dosent realy come out as a better religion then any other. Just look at the body count that christian swords, torture knives and burning stakes is responsible for.

@Bloodblender
1. I'm judging them by their actions, not their culture.
2. Any proof of that?

Again, it's not the human part of us, it;s the animal part of us. Every religion on the face of the Earth wants everyone to follow it and every religion on the face of the Earth has missionaries. That sense of shame is called civilization and conscience.

I didn't mention Hitler in that last one, and I brought him up to point out no matter what a good a person may do, that is outshone by the evils they commit more often than not. What happened centuries ago hasn't got damn thing to do with me or any other living Christian.

@TheChief
1. Clearly you dont know enough, so you dont have the right to judge 'them'. Like I wrote before, those that raided were few in number, but very successful. To say 'them' is to pair up peaceful farmers with a few bandits, and then judge them att by the actions of the bandits. That would be like if I judged every settler in USA for what happend during occasions like Wounded Knee. I dont do that, becourse I know better.
2. Proof that the religion is dead, or that christianity killed it? Or that much knowlage have been lost? You will find proof in any academic litterature on the subject. The book I recomended to you is one of them, and Price is a very respected archeologist who even studied the subject here in Sweden. On sight, not from a distance. There is plenty of proof, but you best look for yourself and compare what the scientific litterature is saying to my words. Otherwise you will not get the full picture. Sure, it can be quite challenging language at times for a seventeen year old, but that is still the easiest way to do it.

"Every religion on the face of the Earth wants everyone to follow it and every religion on the face of the Earth has missionaries".
That is incorrect. Only very few religions are of missionary nature. You have christianity, islam, buddhism, and a number of small sects and cults who do that. Also, the way buddhism does it generaly differ from that of christianity and islam. Judaism dosent drive mission. Nor do hinduism, sikhism, zoroastrism, daoism, conficianism, shintoism, etc. That is becourse most religions dont have the idea in them that their religion is the only right path for everyone. Usuly it is a seen as the right path for the group wich it is practiced in. They may include others as well, but only if the new initiates truly and wholeheartedly wants to. Zoroastrism is particularly interesting in this matter, as one of their guru-saints gave his life in order to protect the right for a diffrent religous group to practice their faith. There are even quite many religions in wich the worshipers dont recognize it as such. They just see it as a few of the things that make out life, and that is that. They practice religion, the way we see it, but to them a call to a divine being or a sacrefice of food to a spirit is no different from baking bread or sharpening the tip of a spear. Its just things that needs to be done for different reasons, and there are different consequenses if it is not done properly.

"That sense of shame is called civilization and conscience".
We all have a sense of shame conected to our councience. That is somthing natural. However, what christianity did to my people was not just that. Ever heard of the so called 'original sin'? That is just one example of how the church have manipulated the emotions of people in order to win power over them. A shame for just being born.

"Again, it's not the human part of us, it;s the animal part of us".
Humans are a type of animals. We are different from ost animals, but animals all the same, and both new and old traits are parts of us for a reason. We are the sum of our parts, and there is no point in neglecting some of those parts just becourse they are older.

"I didn't mention Hitler in that last one, and I brought him up to point out no matter what a good a person may do, that is outshone by the evils they commit more often than not. What happened centuries ago hasn't got damn thing to do with me or any other living Christian".
Now you are starting to get it, but I dont understand why you think I was refering to you. Concerning modern christians, there are some that have an interpretation of the religion wich I find to be good and worthy, while other ones are worthy only of blame. And then there are those that are mostly harmless, but wich still cant shake off the shadow of the more negative parts of its past.
Also, note that the reference to Hitler was as a person, and yes, what a person do for good and bad must be measured in order to decide if he/she is a good or bad person, but that is on a individual level. On a sociologigal level, however, it is not that simple. You cant judge a whole people as good or bad, but you can note positive and (not or) negative traits that can be found within its culture.

@Bloodblender
1. Explain to me exactly what I don't know. I'm well aware that most Northmen were farmers at home and that a good percentage of their gods were war-oriented, but that doesn't change any of the things that were done by the Norse.

2. Honestly I don;t remember what this line of arguments was about.

Buddhism differs from every religion because Buddhism isn't a religion. In any nation which those religions ruled in the ancient times, those of different faiths would be persecuted. I don't judge them, mind you, being as it was ages ago.

We all have a natural capability towards sin which is known as Original Sin. And what did the Christians do to "your people" specifically?

The whole is more than the sum of it's parts. We are not merely animals. We are more than animals, we are not slaves to our natural drives and urges and therefore ought to rise above them.

I have my doubts you are much in the way of favoring my religion.
The Nordic religion believed it was alright to raid and terrorize others because they were weaker than yourself. My ancestors suffered from that? Should I give a damn about what they did on the home front, which in no way, shape or form affected my ancestors?

@TheChief
1. I cant sum up the millions of pages of research that exist on the subject, or even just the thousands that I have read, but I can say this much: Most of the old nordic gods were not war oriented.
Oden/Odin was war-oriented to a degree, especialy concerning battle rage, but had many other aspects as well. Mostly he was associated with magic and persuit of knowlage. Then there was Tyr, who had a much more organization based association with the battle, but also with order and the divine in more general terms. Tor/Thor, on the other hand, was accualy not a war god, but a defender. He happend to have a very fiery temper, and could be very dangerous at times, but that is just thunder for you. Then we have Brage, the bard god, and his youthgiving wife Idun, quite peaceful both of them. Balder is described as peaceful by every source exept that of Saxo, and the same can be said about his brother Höder. The heaven god Heimdall was a watcher, not a warrior, and Odens wife Frigg was associated with the earth, not the sword. Now those are the aesir gods that come to my mind, but there was also another kind of gods in the old nordic belief system; the vanir. They were fods of fertility, magic and the dead. Not of death-dealing, but of the dead. Frej and Freja both represented fertelity, and their father Njord was god of fishing, sailing and so on, while his wife Skade was goddess of hunting, skeeing and the wilds in general (she was born a giant, but became a goddess through marriage).
Now, those were some of the gods (the ones I can remember just like that), but there is more to it then that. The old Norse religion was not as focused on the gods or their will as christianity is, and there were a lot more nature spirits and the like to consider then gods on a daily basis. They also did not believe that the human had a soul, but rather several separate soulaspects wich together made up the person.
Now, that is a very simple simplification of the basics needed to even begin to understand old Norse religion.

2. Well, it was your statement, and I could not make out what you was trying to say, even tho I tried.

Concerning buddhism, it is a religion if you accept the fact that it dosent have to center around gods. If you dont accept this, then suddenly there are a lot or little religions all around the world that can no longer be seen as such, even tho they have a very strong spiritual tradition.
The persecution of those of other religions was hardly standard in the past. It was quite common in the Middle East, within judaism, zoroastrism and so on, and that spread to christianity and islam, but in the rest of the world such prosecutions only came to be if the dominant religion, power or culture became threatend by it.

The so called Original Sin is not about what may be, but a guilt that is said to be passed on from Adam and Eve, when they ate the forbidden fruit. What they did to my people, besides all the blood spilled in Norway, was to take away many of our old traditions and make people feel guilt over having natural urges. I have mentioned this before.

Is it slavery to follow our urges, or it is slavery to be taught to deny them just becourse they are there? It is a bit like the greek myth about Tantalus, who was punished with constant hunger, surrounded by delicious food wich constantly kept out of reach. That is not freedom, but torture. Some restrictions are of course always needed, and that for some quite real reasons, but what the church taught back in the day was just slavery and torture of the mind in order for the church and its representives to gain in power.

Forget doubts, I dont favour your religion, but neither do I unfavour or wish to take it away from you. However you choose to believe, that is your decision, and dont want to deny you or anyone else this right.
As should be obvious from my previous statements, the old Norse religion was not a religion of war or raiding, just as christianity is not, but there have always been people who wage war or raid, despite teir religion, and some use their religion as an excuse to wage war. There were the viking raids just as there were the crussades.

@TheChief Yes, it is a big difference.

@Innanna Why? One way or the other they're just as dead. I'm not justifying what my forebearers did, but the heathens your ilk claims to emulate were just as bad if not worse.

@TheChief Quite frankly, if someone is going to rape, torture and kill, at least they can be honest about it. Don't go around doing horrible shit then tell the survivors or the ones being tortured "We did it because God loves you and we are only 'purifying' you." "Why did we ruin your culture, take your land, kill and torture your people? So we could bring you the love and mercy of God." Pagan peoples didn't give a rats' ass who you worshipped, you simply had something they wanted and if you weren't strong enough to defend it, you didn't deserve to have it.
Those of the Yaweh faith claim that truth is ever so important to them but then they go and lie about damned near everything. 'Thou shalt not steal' yet they will steal anything they can get. They will take something that belongs to someone else and claim it was theirs all along. 'Love thy neighbor,' 'Judge not lest ye be judged,' yet these very same people are some of the most judgmental and intolerant people you will ever see.

@Innanna They killed their enemies. Those heathen swine would have done the same with half a chance so I don't give much of a damn if they got it or not.
And that's sooooo much better. A bunch of illiterate pirates sailing around the North Sea, killing the men, raping the women and enslaving the children, all justified by the rule of the fittest.
That is generalizing bullshit and you know it.
I can see you've had your problems with my faith in the past, but I don't give two fucks in Hell.For all your preaching about how good heathenism is, you're just as selfish and short-sighted and ignorant as those illiterate inbred Northmen were a thousand years ago.

@TheChief Did I strike a nerve? Someone is getting a little upset. Killing enemies, or people in general, is a favorite past time of the human race.
All conflicts stem from three things: Power, Money and Control. There are simply some who cannot get enough of it and will go to extreme lengths to get it and keep it.
I never said how 'heathenism is good,' I said they were usually honest about why they were wiping you out. If I was to be killed, I would much rather my killer be honest about his/her motives rather than claim they are doing it to show me how much their god loves me.

@Innanna What strikes a nerve is that you have the audacity to lecture me about violence, when your whole pantheon is a bunch of divine war criminals.
Do you honestly think that the Christians didn't really believe they were doing the right thing? Is the concept of helping others, however warped, really that alien to you?

@TheChief Most of the ones with power were very corrupt and only cared to use their power and wealth to advance themselves. Popes were assassinated by those who wanted the position. Bishops and so forth raped women and buggered boys. I'd say they knew they were doing wrong.
As for the common person, I've no doubt they thought they were doing what was right even though the things they did were prohibited by their own Bible. A great many people today don't know what is in the Bible or they choose to ignore any part of it that is unappealing to them.
Not all Pagans were 'divine war criminals'. Again, it's those with power and wealth that cause the most trouble. Or those seeking more power and wealth as well as control of others.
I'm simply saying at least be honest about why you are killing people, taking their land and destroying their culture. Don't tell them it is 'Gods' love and mercy' or that they are doing it in the 'name of God'. Just say it plainly, you have something we want and we will do whatever we have to do to get it.

@Innanna I thought we were referring to the supposed Crusaders. And those were a slim minority ofall the people.
Theology is a difficult science.
I was referring to the Pagan gods.
They were being honest to what they believed. Certainly some of the higher ups were in it for personal gain, but most truly believed they were doing what's right.

@Kiwiaka Iceland's conversion was relatively peaceful, compared to Scandinavia's or the Baltic's at least. It was treated like a syncretic faith for some time there, to the point where Norse myths were preserved through Latin christian writings (Codex Regius and Elder Edda).

@JanValentine Denmark's conversion was also pretty peaceful, at least the initiateing moves. The king decided he would be Christian (we have a story about a monk walking over fiery coals or some such) and lo and behold, his followers followed his example to a certain degree. Of course, later on, you get the whole "be Christian or burn at the stake). ...It was easier to control a christian population than one following a plethora of gods.

@Kiwiaka
It was a bit different in Norway compared to Sweden and Denmark, as Norway faced more violence in this. However, the grip of christianity did come gradualy.

In fact Odin-worship survived well into the 1500s in Dalarna (Dalecarlia) and Småland (Smalandia) where they worshiped a horse known as a valgud which means warrior god, which is also an old name for the Allfather (which was also the god of war) the horse thing is clearly Sleipner, Odin's eight-legged horse. Few people of the time propably knew of the link to the old pagan god but it is understandable as the common folk had Little to no understanding of the old beliefs godly World.

Dalarna today is still known for their small decorated wooden horses (Dalahäst/dala horse) which is a last remnant of the old Odin worship still alive today.
Horses has in general been considered very holy in various indo-euorpean Cultures. It has ancient roots which probably goes back to the proto-aryan Lifestyle on the eastern-european steppes.

@Svenskefan i am tinkering with a Little theory that it MAY be because horses were used for so many Things. carrying people around, helping plow the fields, dragging goods around, meat in the harsh Winters, and probably a lot more it may be why the hors is still praised in some cultures today

I am protected by the lightning wrath of the Thunder God Thor, and the holy might of the Son of the One God. What was that? Contradictory? I do not know such long words, alas now I must hack you to pieces with my ax."

And thus TRUE NORWEGIAN BLACK METAL was bjorn!

Despite Christianization, our old pre-Christian faith never really left our minds. For instance, the days of the week are still named after Norse gods (for the most part) in the Scandinavian languages:

Mandag (Máni's Day), Tirsdag (Týr's Day), Onsdag (Odin's Day), Torsdag (Thor's Day), Fredag (Frigg's Day) and Søndag (Sól's Day).

@EricTheRedAndWhite It's the same with English (and I'm pretty certain with other Germanic languages too).

Sunday (Sun Day), Monday (Moon Day), Tuesday (Tyr's Day), Wednesday (Odin's Day), Thursday (Thor's Day), and Friday (Frig's Day). Saturday is the only one to represent a Roman god (Saturn).

Plenty of Romantic languages also follow this pattern, but with Roman gods.

In Spanish, it's lunes (Moon Day), martes (Mars' Day), miércoles (Mercury's Day), jueves (Jupiter's Day), and viernes (Venus' Day). Only sábado (Sabbath Day) and domingo (Lord's Day) follow a Judeo-Christian pattern.

@EricTheRedAndWhite Also, Woden is the Anglo-Saxon equivalent of Odin, which I think is where Wednesday actually comes from.

Weren't the roman made cross to kill jesus.. So it's european things become christianity and jesus never visit europe and become popular in every european countries..

@Zuperkrunch not entirely sure I get the joke. Is it a pun on pilot error?

@SchrodySweden it's referring to pontius pilates, he was the fifth prefect of the Roman province of Judaea, serving under Emperor Tiberius from AD 26 to 36. He is best known today for the trial and crucifixion of Jesus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate For the first time i though it was pilot error too..

@Zuperkrunch yeah, I got that bit, I'm just wondering how saying Pilate messed up is supposed to be funny or politically relevant (i'm guessing this is a political cartoon) unless "Pilate error" is supposed to be a pun on "pilot error" and the cartoon is poking fun at airlines using "pilot error" as their excuse for every crash

@SchrodySweden pontius the pilot

@Zuperkrunch lol xD

@SchrodySweden
It's just a weak pun. Don't analyze it to death. :P

@Zuperkrunch
European and North American depictions of "Jesus" also change both his name, and ethnicity. They all like their deities very white. :P

@Hinoron others name of "jesus", such as..?jesus not a jew anymore?

@Zuperkrunch
IIRC, Yeshua bin Yusefi is his authentic name. Sounds a lot like the sort of people Crusaders were being asked to swing swords at some centuries later, doesn't it? There is no J sound in his native language of Aramaic. I believe the Greeks first started calling him "Jesus", well after his death, and the name sort of stuck.

@Hinoron oh.. So, his real name was Yeshua... Nice info..

@Hinoron Names are altered for every language. Mary and Miriam are the same name; so are Jesus and Joshua. It all depends on how names are relayed. John comes from the Hebrew Yochanan through the Greek Ioannes and is also called Juan, Johannes, Johan, Jan, Jon, Yannick, Ivo, Ivan, Evan, Sion, Sean, Gianni, Hans, Janek, Yannis, and Ian in other languages.

In addition, the trans-African slave trade of women for concubinage was not very well established at the turn of the first millennium. The DNA of the ancient and classical people of the Levant most closely resembles modern Sardinians. They were, quite simply, very white. Not as pale as Nordic people but the same complexions of most Greeks and Italian Romans. They did have dark hair and dark eyes, but it was impossible to tell that a Jew was not a Greek or a Roman by their appearance. If a rare lighter-haired Roman appeared, then they couldn't be confused with a Jew, but the reverse was not the case at all.

@MarianneDos

Yes, thank you for underlining my point. "Jesus" isn't the only name changed, certainly; in fact it's undergone fewer shifts than most. Still would be unpronounceable by the man himself. Jews and Muslims keep his original middle-eastern name, along with all the rest of them, as I understand it.

As for his ethnicity... well, this sums it up better than I can...

@Zuperkrunch
We're witnessing a Roman torture/execution instrument wtf