Balancing act

We just need an image of America on fire and that's how the Covid thing is being handled here.

@TDR Our country is not on fire! I can tell because if it were on fire, people would then at least BE WEARING THEIR #$@&ING MASKS!!! LOL... *sigh*

@TuxedoCartman Also we wouldn't be arguing over what the fire is called. "Wow, you call them forest fires!? That's so offensive! It's not the forest's fault! Why do you hate trees!?"
"Uh, well the fire started in the forest so..."

But seriously. We're in a pandemic and we can't even name the friggin virus without SJWs getting up in arms. Bill Maher's take on this was very on-point here:
https://youtu.be/dEfDwc2G2_8

The pandemic started in Wuhan, hence Wuhan Virus. Done deal, right? Just like Lyme Disease or Spanish Flu.

@OneOfThemOregonians

No, not a "done deal".

Lyme Disease isn't called that all over the world, it's more correctly called Borrelia after the class of bacteria that causes it.
And Spanish flu certainly didn't originate in Spain - it was just first openly reported about from neutral Spain, since the outbreak started during the end of World War I and all major powers at war had news about the new disease suppressed by press censorship.
But the disease occurred in other countries around the world before it spread to Spain.

Nor is it a scientific norm or WHO protocol to name a disease after where it originated.
It's often hard (if not entirely impossible) to know for sure where a disease actually comes from, as they develop over time and mutate into what eventually become a disease severe enough to be discovered - so where exactly did that mutation happen?

Also - what's the point?
It doesn't matter where a disease originated - connecting a geographical name to a disease tells us nothing relevant about it.
Naming it in connection with the family of virus or bacteria it belongs to if far more factually relevant.

No, the push to rename the disease (because it already has a name, accepted by the rest of the world) originates with Trump and the republican party and is part of a desperate attempt to divert attention from the Trump administration own disastrous missmanagement of the response to the disease.

It's all about trying to blame China or the WHO - or anyone else - for the Trump administration and republicans own failures.

You wrote in another post that you where just a "dumb American".

Nowhere is that more true that if you fall for this easy diversionary tactic.

@Nisse_Hult Okay good points. But let me get this right out of the way. I'm neither a supporter of Trump nor do I condone the irresponsible mishandling of the virus here in America by the Trump administration. Quite the opposite, actually. My point is that these diseases have been known by these names, either colloquially or scientifically and noone bats an eye. But then you say Wuhan Virus and are accused of racism or bigotry of some other sort, which ridiculous. And the scientific or more accurate name is irrelevant in the argument. We don't call a wolf "Canis Lupis", we call it a wolf. It's a question of common language, not scientific terminology. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying not to call it Covid 19, I'm saying calling it Wuhan Virus is not deserving of the level of criticism it gets.

Also, saying that the virus spread from china is not entirely false. Even Dr. Fauci, he himself being a well-known disputer of Trump's BS, points the finger at China. The Chinese wet markets have been a problem since before this pandemic, with scientists already having detected disease-causing bacteria in the infamous horseshoe bats at the center of it all, which Fauci points to as direct cause of the pandemic. Saying it's wrong to blame China for the outbreak is ignorant and excuses the horrible hygiene practices which may very well have started this whole pandemic. Trump tries to say China created this problem in a lab, which is obvious BS. Trump's administration tries to divert attention from their failings. That doesn't work. But scientists are still pointing the finger towards China, towards the consumption of bats sold in their wet markets. No matter where the virus itself first appeared and infected animals, it was in Wuhan that it blew up, and they made it all to easy. At the end of the day, yes, Trump needs to be held accountable for the failings of his administration to properly respond to this viral threat, and trying to avoid responsibility. But China should not get off scot-free either. It's not a question of which side to take. Both should be held accountable.

@Nisse_Hult Also, to be more specific, I am particularly talking about the use of language in America, which I realize I didn't make clear enough before. I am not saying others should change the way they adress the virus. I'm saying that Americans who do call it the Wuhan Virus shouldn't be dog-piled on.

@OneOfThemOregonians While I never corrected anyone who said Wuhan Virus, it is stupid when leaders do. With other diseases the mostly use scientific name. Also some countries said by new information they had virus BEFORE Wuhan. So who knows....

We have that over here too.

January
Trump: Let's close down borders
Everyone else: OMG so racist, distracting us from impeachment trial!

April
Trump: Let's open up country
Everyone else: OMG he's going to kill us all for his precious economy!

@CorruptUser

If Trump ran into a burning building and single handedly save an entire family of illegal immigrants, we'd see "Trump burns cat to death" in the front page news because he couldn't rescue their pet.

@Steeeve

I utterly despise Trump and won't vote for him this election. However, that doesn't mean I think the media has been fair. They have hounded him on things that he was actually right about. For instance, his "shithole countries" remark. If you are turning hundreds of thousands of people into refugees, your country IS a shithole. Yet somehow his remark was considered the most obscene thing in the world. Even recently, he mused about how it's a shame that doctors don't have a way to use disinfectants internally, and somehow that became "TRUMP SUGGESTS PEOPLE SHOULD DRINK BLEACH!", when he absolutely didn't do that. Then, his followers being what they are, some of them see the media reports and then they DO drink bleach and end up in the emergency room.

Really, if I could have an election to remove the media itself...

@CorruptUser " If you are turning hundreds of thousands of people into refugees, your country IS a shithole" That is assuming the country is the one doing it to themselves. And you just call USA among others a shithole country, because they have contributed in turning hundreds of thousands into refugees. Furthermore if you see the video when he suggests it, it is not really hard to see how somebody uneducated could see it as him being serious. There is no denying that he suggested medical research into digestion of disinfectants, whether he was serious or sarcastic is another matter. But that kind of ambiguity is plain stupid.

The media may go hard on him, but your examples are bad.

@CorruptUser
Those people are fleeing places where the gangs are so well armed, stray bullets are flying through their living rooms at any time. You can hardly fault them for not wanting to try and raise your kids there (they might not survive to adulthood).

The abundance of guns are easily acquired by USA straw purchasers due to extremely lax gun control laws, who then sell them to the South American gangs at a considerable profit (gangs have drug money aplenty, but it's not like you can grow a crop of assault rifles in the jungle).

Right-wing USA groups (including Trump and many of his supporters) see a tide of brown faces marching north, fleeing from those violence-ridden countries and come to the obvious conclusion! "We need looser gun laws so we can protect ourselves from this dangerous invasion!" (Of people who don't want to live in a violent place; Oooh! Pacifists! How terrifying!)

So it's...
Loose gun laws >> guns are easily purchased by US gun runners and sold to S.A. gangs >> Refugees flee South America for (purportedly) less violent USA, hoping they and their children will be safe there. >> Refugees used as an excuse for looser gun laws.
Cycle repeats.

@Hinoron

True - but it also goes much deeper then that.

The US has been treating South and Latin America as it's colonies for more then a century.
It's been coined the Monroe Doctrine to give it a fancy name, and officially it's about helping those countries - but in reality it's just all about exploiting them.

The US have backed dictators, instigated coups against democratically elected leaders, assassinated other leaders, funded civil wars and outright invaded countries that haven't done as they're told.

And all in the name of US corporate profits and US political interests.

So they've basically fucked that part of the world over for more then a century and created many of the conflicts that exist there today.

But most US citizens neither knows nor cares, because they where taught that the US is always the hero in the story and they prefer that lie to reality.

And the same goes for the rest of the world to a lesser extent.
The US has fucked countless countries over and understandably created enemies everywhere.

But since their voters are too ignorant to care what's being done in their name outside of their own country, they don't understand the ways their own nation has created many of the problems that now come back to bite them.

@Nisse_Hult

Another good example is the Samoan islands.
The USA has an obesity problem. It's something like 40% "overweight" and 30% "Obese". (The numbers shift a bit, year to year).
However Samoa has over 90% obese... and the USA did it to them.

Prior to WW2, Turkeys were mostly a special occasion bird, put on the table for big family gatherings like Thanksgiving and Christmas. After WW2 however, Americans started wanting to eat turkey year-round, so the industry responded by aggressively breeding more turkeys. Now it's in your supermarket every day right next to the chicken.

However, not every part of the Turkey is that delicious. There's a large gland in the tail that is extremely oily and greasy, and not exactly healthy eating, for all that it is technically edible. These "Turkey butts" were basically unsellable in nutrition-conscious US markets, but because turkey production had expanded so much, these waste turkey tails were piling up. The solution was to export them to a country with much less development in nutritional science and a more poorly educated population. Samoa.
The 3rd world island country quite happily imported all this cheap meat, and developed their own recipes for making the turkey butts tastier to eat. It became a staple food of their culture.

This started about 50 years ago. Now Samoans are so widely known for being hugely obese it's considered a racial trait of the people. There are organizations within the county trying hard to ban the turkey tails that are literally killing their people at an young age, and block their import into the country.

Reasonable, yes? This food is proven extremely unhealthy and the 90%+ obesity problem it's created is so severe it make's America's obesity issues seem like a joke.

However, the USA and its industries are fighting like hell to make blocking the import of a specific trade food ILLEGAL. The NAFTA, that Trump was so keen to renegotiate to be more favourable to US interests, was and still is heavily favourable to large countries like the US, and basically allows them to bully smaller countries like Samoa.

The turkey butts continue to flow. The fact that their import is directly leading a quarter-million brown-skinned people to die in their 40s is not sufficient cause for a few US corporations to find a less profitable solution to dispose of the millions of pounds of turkey-ass they produce every year.

@Nisse_Hult If you haven't noticed, our news is nearly all propaganda. I'd like to know where you get your info or is it just a bunch of conspiracy theories?

@Steeeve

What I'm talking about there isn't news - it's history.
The historic record of US covert and public interventions in countless countries in support of it's interests over the interests of people in those countries.

There are any number of sources on all of this, countless books have been written about it, there have been US congress investigations and so on.

But you have to read up on all of that - or possibly find some documentaries about it - to get up to speed.

You can begin reading here and then follow the links and sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

@CorruptUser
Ha, I'll probably vote 3rd party like I did last round. Wish more would, both parties are cancers right now.

It's too bad the media isn't so easy to dispose of. When they flood the news with twisted, overblown and false facts it's hard for people to tell what's real and I think it has desensitized his supporters.

@Steeeve What is third party (not so well versed in american politics) ? Are you sure it is better than thye other two ?
I mean in France we do have other options that the main parties, but some of them are not better...
My view on your dilemma : (economic) liberalism is a bad ideology, both parties are liberals, so both parties are pretty bad.

@Steeeve
As it appears from here, he could single-handedly shoot an entire family of legal immigrants and we'd see "Trump saves cat" on Fox News because he missed their pet.

@Steeeve
Go hang, trumpster fire.

@Sisu You are a petty fool, use the noose on yourself if you can't be civil.

BTW I don't like trump. Never voted for him, never will. I routinely call him idiot-in-chief for a reason. Just because I don't side with the BS flowing around or acknowledge when he does something good doesn't mean I like him. I don't like the Democratic party either. More than both, I really don't like our media that feeds not only us, but the world propaganda - mostly from the Democratic Party.

The majority of crap they report on Trump would either have been considered not newsworthy or covered up had it been a democratic party president (see Obama) or in some cases even a normal republican. It is also rather clear by now that right or wrong he's in the wrong. He does plenty on his own, the media doesn't need to swamp the news in BS. We've had 4 years of this pettiness, it's already gone well past old. I can't believe the number of people who haven't realized they are angry because the media wants them to be.

@Steeeve
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

@Sisu Not watching TV helps most.

@Steeeve Truth is, Trump would never run into a building and save anyone. He probably would twitter about how the 'fake news media' didn't do anything to save that family and their pets or just blame any (political) opponent or the previous inhabitant for not saving them, stating how he would have saved all and put out the fire, ignoring the fact that he was at the scene and didn't do anything useful, except maybe bring sausages on a stick to the scene.

@CorruptUser Trump has been talking about closing down borders on and off for literally 4 years. When you talk about closing the border for no discernible reason, that's heavily indicative of racism.

Additionally, the one time he could've instituted restrictions on the US, and it would've been beneficial, Trump ignored literally all of the intelligence about the looming pandemic, and did nothing to prepare for it. Oh, and NOW he closes the borders to the US, and kills immigration, when its completely useless. The US is one of the worst affected countries on Earth by Covid. The virus is already here. If anything, we should be locking our people IN so we don't infect other countries, not locking people out.

If the only time you call for closing borders is when there's no reason for it, or when it's actively useless, you're probably not enacting good policy, you're just looking for an excuse to keep people from coming into this country of immigrants.

Also, the "January" comment is not only misleading, but the date is wrong. Trump heard about Covid in NOVEMBER. That's when he should have been acting. He had MONTHS to prepare and he did nothing.

Additionally, opening up the country right now without careful assessment of the situation WILL kill people. We don't know how many coronavirus cases there really are. We don't have the testing to safely lift the lockdowns, and the testing currently in place is abysmal. States like New York are being overrun by Covid deaths, to the point of medical workers calling it a "9/11 every day". States like California are considering gradually opening up because they locked down early enough to get a handle on the disease. But states like Georgia opening up, despite having to declare their outbreak a federal emergency less than a month ago, is insane.

Opening up without a plan is insane, and will get people killed. And blindly encouraging states to open their lockdown, and encouraging people to actively protest their lockdowns is damn near criminal.

Frankly, I'm really hoping Humon does a comic on the US's response, because I'm worried that international news, and some domestic news, isn't covering exactly how insane the US's federal response to Covid is.

@korben600 Let's also remember that Trump shut down the Pandemic Response Unit at the CDC several years ago on the grounds that we did not need it, has tried to prevent states that he lost in 2016 from receiving federal aid, and has been allowing PPE in federal stockpiles that was supposed to be given out to places that need it to instead be seized by private companies and sold for exorbitant prices.

@ShoggothOnTheRoof Should point out he did move them to another unit that had a lot of overlap. He didn't just cut off our ability to respond to a pandemic like most seem to think when they hear he disbanded the PRU.

@Steeeve Except that cutting off our ability to respond to a pandemic is exactly what he did.

When the Ebola outbreak struck west Africa in 2013, the PRU was mobilized to put a plan into place to deal with its arrival in the US months ahead of time. This included routing planes through specific airports, setting up testing sites around the country, training thousands of responders to work both in the US and abroad, and stockpiling and setting up plans to distribute PPE and other necessary equipment. Compare that to the current situation, where federal agencies were ordered to not do anything even after cases of Covid infection were detected in the country and reports that contradicted the president's delusional statements were classified.

@CorruptUser Well you are comparing things that does not really add up.
1: Yes Trump closed the borders but a: he still let 40.000 travelers from China in (making the closing somewhat pointless) and b: he didn't close the borders to other nations untill well after, even though the center of the virus had shifted from China to Europe at the time.
So yes, the crituqe of Trump was well founded, and although I would not call it racist, it was with an edge to nationality.

2: Yes he is wanting to open up again in the belief that it will help/save te economy... And that is really his only goal.
However doing so at a time where the Virus is shifting from the North to the South, and the daily death toll is still over 2000, its pretty hard to argue that he is wanting to kill a lot of people to save his economy, that he brags about so much.

You can think the media is hysterical... I wont argue against that, but I will point out that both the cases you choose, are true(!) and that he has been utterly incompetent.

@CorruptUser His "close the borders" didn't happen in january. Although he's been harping on that for the past four years, it was several months after january where he did that. No, January was the "It's not important, don't worry about it" phase. After that came the "it's not a big deal, it'll pass through". and even worse after that was the infamous "it'll be cured by easter!" Let's be honest with ourselves here, by the time he did the close the borders bit, it was too late for us. It'd be more of a favor to mexico at that point. 'Course that brings us to today "we won, shut down the task over, good job everyone!"

But go ahead, keep assuming people's criticisms of his actions are invalid. What do I care, it's the people in "his" states who have the most to lose at this point *shrugs* Can't really help people who are intent on shooting themselves in the foot.

@CorruptUser It may be true that Trump is sometimes misrepresented in the media, but let's face it : he deserved that by spewing a whole load of bullshit. When only one thing you say out of 50 makes sense, you shouldn't be surprised people don't listen to you anymore... So forgive me if i'm not sad for him... :s

Meanwhile, America is off in the corner having a full psychotic break...

@Adalwin while her neighbour in the north is shaking their heads and hoping that the insanity stays south of the border

@Adalwin I can see it, Brother America is cowering in a corner while being consoled by Sister America. That'd be about the gist of things here. The general feel isn't panic in my state, Oregon even sent ventilators back east. Helps that our governor knows her job, unlike the governor of NY.

For those who believe they're superior to most, the keepers of the one and single truth, caught in a web of unjustified self-importance and looking down on others for not being Scandinavian or Swedish, I have some news for you:

No one knows.

We're currently dealing with a situation that's unprecedented for our generations, with an enemy that's still largely unknown, especially for long term effects. New aspects are discovered every day, theories on Covid-19 are adjusted daily. Consequentially, no one has answers on what's the right strategy on how to handle this right now. Not me, not experts, and certainly not Nisse_Hult, who presents his opinions and assumptions as facts, claiming that others must deliver scientific proof if they disagree with his thoughts. That's not just arrogance, it's downright dangerous for those who actually believe him.

As of today, most governments take decisions based on what information they have. Usually this information comes from real experts, sometimes from jokers like Donald Trump and Jair Bolsonaro, but most of it is based on educated guessing as of today. It's like playing poker, no one knows for sure if a decision was right until this is all over and we can start evaluating. So far most only seem to agree that trying something is better than doing nothing. To compare countries, states or regions with each other is something that doesn't make sense. A lot of factors, like for example demography and normal social patterns and behavior have a huge impact, and those differ significantly per country, county and even community. Heck, countries even disagree on how to calculate their statistics on infected, hospitalized and diseased Covid-patients. Anyway, as a Norwegian comedian pointed out: nothing will change in Finland if they suddenly have to start doing social distancing.

The UN recently posted a statement about how the world currently experiences a 'tsunami of hatred' due to the Coronavirus and people and nations fighting each other over who handles this best and pissing on those who have a different approach. 'Foreigners/Jews/Muslims make us ill', 'Nation X must really hate its elderly', that kind of crap. Given some of the reactions here, I see truth in that statement. Please stop it.

Please, just keep a positive spirit and make the best of it. If you survive, then you have a great story to tell future generations. Try to learn from each other, try to cooperate, so that we can get back (or forward) to a new normal again as soon as possible. Find new challenges or hobbies while in quarantine. Fighting doesn't solve anything, your opinion about this disease or how to handle it isn't better than that of anyone else, including mine.

Thank you.

@ImportViking I like fighting and writing about things I find Idiotic. Critising how countries are fighting epidemic is stupid as you say, but some confirmed measures to fight economic collapse, welll are just idiotic. Saying that those receiving pensions is one of the worst hit economically? That makes 0 sense, those who last jobs, especially with children are worst hit, but pensioners will receive one time payout, those jobless ones will middle finger from government.... Of course I will fight and dislike anyone saying that that is good decision...

@ImportViking If this virus worked differently, I would be right there saluting you and encouraging people to do their own thing. HOWEVER...

-people can be contagious for up to 2 weeks without showing symptoms
-the virus lingers on surfaces and in the air for an incredibly long time (days for metal, 24-hours for cardboard, 3-4 hours in the air).
-it is far more contagious than influenza, infecting much easier

These are FACTS. Straight up, indisputable, don’t-care-if-you-don’t-like-it FACTS. As such, any critically-thinking human being would look at them... ESPECIALLY the first one, how asymptomatic people are contagious for so long... and say to themselves, “Holy hell monkeys, THIS IS SERIOUS!!!” I can forgive people who believe the conspiracies that it was made in a lab, because if I had to custom develop a more insidious virus for a game or movie, I don’t think I could. If it had the fatality rate of Ebola, we would *literally* be talking about the end of humanity as a species.

As such, no... no, I do NOT have to respect people who have different ideas of how to handle this pandemic, when those ideas fly in the face of what we know. If Covid-19 killed quickly... like, say, you lick someone’s eyeball in the morning, start looking pale 30-minutes later, and die in a pool of your own blood before dinner... then sure! Open up the businesses and schools and water parks for the idiots! More power to them!

BUT... IT... DOESN’T!!! Mr. Ain’t No Gubmint Gonna Tell Me What To Do attends a “Wuhan Virus is a Hoax!” rally, gets infected... LIKE SENSIBLE PEOPLE WARNED HIM HE WOULD; goes home, spreading his germs on every door knob and gas station pump for hundred of kilometers; thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands of people come into contact with this asshole or surfaces he contaminated in the two weeks before he develops his cough, saying “Oh dern! Maybe I shudda stayed home more.” By the time this dumbass has learned his lesson, it’s too late; he’s spread this disease like a cluster bomb over his community.

I’m not even getting into the growing trend of deniers purposefully coughing in the faces of people choosing to wear masks.

What I’m trying to say is this: the way this disease works, we’re all in this together. If some of us want to go their own way, and trust it’ll work itself out, THAT PUTS ALL OF US AT RISK.

@TuxedoCartman Your facts can change. Like they were claiming is SK, scientists said you can get reinfected, that it is a fact. Same scientists now saying that there was actually 0 reinfections and it can't happen. About infection, who knows, numbers in my country says that it is few hundred times less infectious. Those numbers are also fact... Yeah, facts, science... Screw it, I believe what I see.

@MiskisM
Scientists just said people were tested positive more than once. They never said they were reinfected.
They were exploring many possibilities: false positives, reactivation of the same virus, reinfections, infection from another strain, etc. At the end they found out it was false positives. The test reacted to virus residus. BUT the scientists are not saying you cannot be reinfected. Just that those people were not.
If they had been reinfected, it would be more likely for others to be reinfected. They were not, so it's less likely for others to get reinfected.

What scientists say and what newspapers choose as simplified clickbait titles, that's two different stories.

@Elina it isn't simle clickbait. Overworking in my opinion is also at fault, working 20/24 also puts stress not only on your body but on you mind, You start to make mistakes in work, but also when talking journalists whom IMO also only hunting for clickbaits...
Also My statement that more people had seasonal flu than covvid still stands,...
Edit, People haven't been tested so much for long time, If you had flu symptoms in flu symptoms = flu. At least how it went in my country and few I know...

@MiskisM
> Yeah, facts, science... Screw it, I believe what I see.

This is bullshit.
Covid-19 is a new thing, scientists can't magically learn all about it right away. This is not how science works. Our understanding grows by day, and sometimes it changes. Believing "what you can see", however, is a recipe for never understanding a lot of things.

@molotovinpeikko that was poorly chosen words, sorry, I trust science, but I don't trust scientists, when we will get final final summary on covid I will trust it. Now we have panic spreading "scientists/medics: "20 infections per day, it is terrible" that is 100 times below even to call even flu epidemic.... But some "experts" call it disaster....

@MiskisM
> I trust science, but I don't trust scientists, when we will get final final summary on covid I will trust it

Huh? So when is "final summary" final enough? What do you plan to rely on meanwhile, hearsay and rumours?

> Now we have panic spreading "scientists/medics: "20 infections per day, it is terrible" that is 100 times below even to call even flu epidemic.... But some "experts" call it disaster....

Of course some people are fearmongers and panic-prone. They might call themselves experts, and they even might be ones, but everybody could be wrong. From what I can see, situation in Lithuania is quite under control, so I would like to read why those experts believe 20 new cases per day to be a problem. The real question is, what do you do now? Let's say there were twice as many cases (asymptomatic) as discovered. It's still very small percentage of total population, most of Lithuanians are as vulnerable to Covid-19 as three months ago.

@molotovinpeikko
Well now we know for sure some things. At least in Lithuania's case. Most cases are asymptomatic so death/infections rates are a lot lower then those flounted 5%. Some countries used "fast tests" to see if you are infected, but it also tests positive if you were sick before. So overall numbers might be higher or lower. Only positive way for me to believe infected numbers is to wait out until few cases are seen daily worldwide. Then test at least 20% of population of Earth.

What I plan to rely on? Nothing, I stopped reading anything Covid related. I just do same as I do in flu season. I keep distance from others, I don't shop for 3-4 months and etc.

Talking about Lithuania's situation it was never out of control. We had ~10 cases/day from beginning. We have 1000~ cases. More than half asymptomatic. If we didn't carry out mass testings it would be ~300-400.

"The real question is, what do you do now?" Continue as we did. While they say we had quarantine, it was only in name. If you are only asked to wear mask in public, mass gatherings are banned and travel restrictions to go abroad, can you call that quarantine. For 99.99% of Lithuanians life hasn't changed and won't...

@molotovinpeikko
Can't find original post so will just make 2nd reply.
To add what we do next. While some things became mandated by government and journalists are screaming about freedoms and change of lifestyle, almost everything was like that even before Covid... Might be actually we haven't suffered like other countries... That is one reason I stopped listening and reading anything related.

@ImportViking
Well said.

I know this is exaggerated for comic effect - but the depiction of brother Sweden is factually wrong.

Swedish authorities didn't underestimate the threat in the beginning, and they're not panicking now.

This is playing out as expected.

People die - they do that in a pandemic.

But the health care services are holding up and (most) people are behaving responsibly.

@Nisse_Hult You just keep telling yourself that...

@Carewolf

No, it's just a fact.

Want to claim something else you'll have to provide the proof for your claim.

And what you think is not proof.

The only thing a comment like yours shows is that you don't have any such proof - but still want to imply you know better.

@Nisse_Hult We have clashed before so I will keep it short. Media report that their sources says "We are preparing for quaratine or harsher restrictions". Yes they make plans, presidents asks questions/answers of their aides. Same goes for I think your hated Trump and Putin. They ask questions but media writes like it is statement...
So far Sweden model seems good, but having a backup plan is always good. As saying goes "First victim of conflict is Plan A".

@Nisse_Hult Well Sweden has a 17% point lead on deaths pr capital compared to Denmark.
That you claim that people just die under an pandemic is lazy, and at the same time missing the point... You have more deaths than you needed to suffer, and that is the issue.

@Schnakenburg

This isn't a sprint - it's a marathon.

Let's compare those numbers in a year or whenever this is over.
Trying to claim absolute knowledge now is just stupid as nobody knows where this will end.

@Nisse_Hult Depends on who, I suppose. Sweden (along with many other countries) has virtually given up on their elderly, they are being turned away from treatment due to the government's actions (or lack there of).
It's one thing to say we tried but we couldn't save them, but it's a whole another issue when they came but are denied treatment.

@Ethelwood

Where ever did you get that nonsense from?

It's certainly not true - I can tell you that.

At the press conference today (they're held every workday) , where the latest Swedish figures are published, they where as follows:

Overall free capacity in the health care system (intensive and non-intensive care): 30%
Total number of intensive care beds with ventilators: 1.050
Intensive care beds currently used to treat patients with Covid-19: 509

In other words: people - let alone the elderly - is certainly not being "turned away from treatment".

But please do tell us all where you got this preposterous idea that the health care service in Sweden is denying sick people treatment - it would be really interesting to see what kind of propaganda you fell for.

The Russians have been posting some other lies about Sweden regarding the Corona crisis - but I haven't heard this particular lie before.

@Nisse_Hult
Tegnell said "Massa aktörer borde arbetat mer för att förbättra äldrevården". Many players should have worked more to improve elderly care. Yes, Tegnell, YOU should have worked more to avoid that health workers and elderly care workers had to commute with people that were probably sick already but did not it know it yet.


And "Statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell säger i Aktuellt att coronaviruset varit mycket mer oförutsägbart än förväntat": He said the virus was more unpredictable than expected. Well, no, it was just as predicted.

Tegnell, always calm, always gently blaming others and half apologizing with a shrug.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/tegnell-viruset-mycket-mer-oforutsagbart-an-vi-trodde

@Elina

I don't know why people fixate on Tegnell?

You realize he's not actually deciding anything himself - right?

He's just one of many people advising the government.

Also - don't you have some French version of him you should be hating on instead?
Last time I checked France wasn't doing terribly well, despite being under total lock down for weeks.

I really don't know why you've fixated on Tegnell and Sweden?

@Nisse_Hult
Hehe, Me knowing Swedish might be a hint about why I'm interested in Sweden, don't you think?

@Nisse_Hult och @Elina.
Interesting enough so are you both wrong.

1. Read up on "Ministerstyre" the Swedish government and any government member is by law forbidden from giving orders so they are basically not part of the decision process righ now, and as they are not even saying especially much in the media that is rather cleare.

2. Old folks homes are under the preview of "Socialstyrelsen" not "folkhälsomyndigheten".
So Anders do only have a limited amount of influence over those.

3. As for the whole "not putting old people in intensive care",
That is both true and false.
As being put in a ventilator for two weeks are rather stressfull for the body if you are in the best of form they have chosen to not intubate some of the oldest and already weekest covid-19 sufferers as those would not survive the time in the ventilator even if they did not have covid-19

@Dun
I haven't written about 1 or 3.

About 2: It does not matter who supervises "old folks' homes". My point is that you have to protect the staff from the virus in the public space. Once the staff is infected, they may contaminate someone else in the pre-symptomatic phase.
Otherwise you have to put every single staff member in a PPE.

If you cannot do that, I can understand. But I cannot fathom how someone then dares the blame the staff.

@Ethelwood
Why are you getting downvoted for telling the truth? The swedes live i fantasy and completely ignore the death as long as it isn't a relative. Talk about callous.

@Sisu
Tegnell plays a big part in the fantasy.
The guy (and Giesecke) utters assertive non sense like a machine gun.
Blaming others for the deaths of the elderly was the last straw for me. After implying the other countries had not based their decisions on science... and that, well, the virus was so unpredictable...

Sweden chose to sacrifice their population at risk, betting a vaccine or a cure would not be found before long. I can understand that. But then they should have the balls to stand by it.

@Elina

Ok then, so France choose to sacrifice their elderly as well? And Italy? And Britain? And Belgium, and the US and so on and so on?

No, there was no sacrificing of anyone anywhere - every nation obviously did their best to stop the disease with the resources they had and before this is over we won't know where it will end.

Early on Germany got lucky in that they managed to avoid the disease spreading to their elderly population.

The average age of the hospitalised Covid-19 patient was at one point 49 years in Germany - and at that age the disease is far less deadly.

But their luck didn't hold - and no, they didn't suddenly decide to sacrifice their elderly either.
Dispite their best efforts the disease spread anyway and the average age of hospitalised patients went up, and so did the death rate.

As long as the world doesn't get a vaccine, this will continue to happen - but hopefully on a smaller scale.

Because many elderly people need daily care and can't be completely isolated from all human contact.

And unfortunately, some time the disease will find it's way to them through their caregivers.

@Nisse_Hult
Not "sometimes". "Always" through their caregivers. That's why we need to protect the caregivers.

France, Germany, Belgium and the US have stricter restrictions than Sweden, btw.
Don't be too fixated on my French flag, by the by ;)

@Elina

"France, Germany, Belgium and the US have stricter restrictions than Sweden, btw."

Which was my point.
They have all had stricter restrictions (but are all starting to lift them now).
So did that work - did it save the elderly population?

No, it didn't.

Which in your way of arguing would prove that they too "sacrificed" their elderly population - like you claim Sweden did - since they didn't manage to protect them.

But in fact no country of course sacrificed it's elderly population - the disease found it's way to them despite the best efforts of every nation.

Which is why it's ridiculous for you to single out Sweden and claim that we somehow "sacrificed" our elderly.

"Sometimes" as in "sometimes caregivers will be able to pass on the infection to the elderly".
But not all caregivers are always infected themselves and even if they are, protective clothing will stop the spread of the disease many times.
So my point was that not every contact between caregiver and elderly will mean an infected elderly - but the risk will always be there as long as the world doesn't develop a vaccine.

And that's at least a year, probably more, from now.

@Nisse_Hult
They started the restrictions way too late. If you compare western France and northeastern France, you'll see there have been very few deaths in western France. Whereas Alsace, where it started, was hit the hardest. So, yeah, restrictions did protect the population when put in place early enough.

Compare Sweden and Norway. 7,5 more deaths per capita in Sweden. Yes, in the long run, the two countries might have the same results. But what about if a cure or a vaccine is available in the fall?

About proper clothing: Sweden did not have enough suitable PPE for the vårdhem. I'm not even sure there's enough now.

@Elina

Everywhere has restrictions - what you are advocating for is total lock down.
Which doesn't work in the long run - which is why every nations that has instituted such policies are now lifting them.

If you are arguing that different parts of France has different outcomes because they went into lock down at different dates you have to prove they did - I have not seen any sources saying they did.

Instead it's mostly a question of patterns of international travel where the virus spread more widely early on. Places with much such travel saw widespread infection before anyone realized the disease was even in the country.

Ah yes - of course you want to compare Sweden and Norway.

But why not Sweden and the dozens of other countries that have gone into lock down and STILL suffered higher per capita death rates?

Which proves that lock down isn't the magical solution you think it is - there are many, many more factors that decides the death rate.

No serious scientist have claimed a vaccine will be ready as early as in the fall - most estimates are 1-1½ years away - and that would still be extremely quick.
I'm not sure a vaccine against a brand new disease has ever been developed that quickly before.

No country in the world has enough suitable PPE for their elderly care - it's one of the main reasons there are so much infection being spread there.

There was - and still is - a global shortage of everything needed to protect against the spread of the virus and most countries health care services barely have enough.

And elderly care is prioritized lower, so they get even less supplies of PPE.

Which again doesn't justify you singling out Sweden as somehow "sacrificing" it's elderly population, since every country on earth is having the same problem.

@Nisse_Hult
Jeg sammenligner Norge og Sverige, jada. Kan du gjette hvorfor?
Kanskje fordi VÅR statsminister sa klart og tydelig at hele poenget var å beskytte de eldre?
But don't fret, with the current lifting and the new "whatever" attitude in Norway, we'll soon be joining Sweden in the "no mask, no problem"-club.

I'm not for a lockdown. I once lived in a country in Asia that is doing much better than even Norway. Without a lockdown.
I'm for personal responsability, and not blaming someone else while saying "Viruset var mycket mer oförutsägbart än vi trodde från början". Sorry, but the virus was just as advertised.

@Elina

Excatly. Even the ordinary Swedes do the same thing in their Quora answers. The gall.

@Sisu

He's not telling the truth.
He's falsely claiming people are being denied treatment in Sweden - and when I asked him to prove that lie he couldn't.

But you are welcome to prove his claim, since you also claim it's truthful.

So where is your proof then, that people are being denied treatment in Sweden?

@Nisse_Hult

I have so many replies in my inbox that i'm not sure who the "he" you're talking about is because i'm not sure what you're responding to.

I haven't claimed people are being denied treatment (yet), but that might happen if the swedish authorities keep risking the vulnerable groups by letting the virus run through the entire population.

People WILL be denied treatment if the situation gets as horrible as it did in Italy (where the healthcare system got so overwhelmed the nurses had to choose who to save and who to abandon), which might very well happen in near future if you don't even try to slow the spread down.

@Sisu
Don't even try to slow the spread down? Do you think we're operating on 100% business as usual? Because that is very much not the case. Yes, some people are oblivious or in denial and ignore the directives, but for the most part I see people keep a 2 m distance, people don't go out unless they absolutely have to (a lot of places almost look like a ghost town), wash their hands... Those who can work from home, and high schools and universities operate via the net as far as they can, though yes, lower schools run as usual. I'll grant I'm not entirely happy with that policy.

I would like to see more people wear a mask, but that's proving difficult as hoarders grab all of them as soon as they show up in stores.

Calculations show that R for the epidemic is unlikely to be above 1.0 now (most likely below), a much slower spread than the R0 of at least 2.5.

Me, I'm getting sick pay (unrelated to covid-19), so I'm mostly a shut-in, only going out when I run out of food. It's a good time to get paid by the government for staying home.

@anksil

If the situation's under control, why do you have the worst death rates in scandinavia?

@Sisu
It takes longer to get it under control the fewer draconian measures you apply.
While I don't know for a fact, I suspect the rest of the Nordics will catch up in death numbers after opening up.

@Sisu
Oh, and here are some graphs for you, not from a Swedish source.
https://mrc-ide.github.io/covid19estimates/#/details/Sweden

@anksil
There are some from GB: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/sweden-becomes-country-highest-coronavirus-death-rate-per-capita/

@Sisu
Sure, in total deaths since the beginning. That's because we were slow to implement our measures, and because we failed to keep the virus out of the nursing homes. That last one is a major screw-up, indubitably, but hardly one unique to us.
Even the Norwegian chief epidemiologist, Frode Forland, has said our measures are adequate, they just came too late.
The death rate and number of people in ICUs are going down steadily.

America:
Shut it all down! We want to live.
There are more important things than living. We need to open it all up!
Hey, look at the UFOs!
Squirrel!

@GaryM Yep, that's what happens when you're a country who's just 50 smaller countries in a trenchcoat. You get some states who go "the economy is more important than 6-10% of the population's lives" and others who go "okay, since SOME of you weren't listening when we said not to gather in public spaces, it's now illegal to visit stores without a face mask. Come on, people."

There are a lot of speculations here about the swedish strategy. Some straight up false accusations, some missunderstood/missinformed and a lot of know-it-all. As @Nisse_Hult wrote, our strategy has never been to achive heard imunity, but keeping the health care system from collapsing. Here bellow are some links of statisics, as well as interviews with our state epidemiologist and other interesting articles. Please read more than the head lines, since there is much more to it.

And some thoughts from a random swede in general: most of the swedes take this crisis and the recommendations from the government really serious. We keep our distance. We don't hang out with others if we are sick. We don't visit our elders. Care homes are closed for the public. Lots of business's are closed or has regulated their open-hours. Most cashiers and service staff are behind plexi glass screens. Staff in restaurants wear gloves - some wear masks - and has taken a lot of other measures to avoid contamination and keep people separated. A lot of greater companies has permited their staff or part of their work force, while struggling with keeping the machinery going.

We do this without being forced to, and it works. The health care system is not overloaded. The death rate curve is stable. We had problems with the care homes in the beginning, which accounts for the high death rate, but we keep on struggling, just as everybody else. Time will show which strategy that worked the best, in the meantime we do best not speculating. Remember that the Internet holds many "truths" that lack credibility.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

https://www.thelocal.se/20200506/coronavirus-in-sweden-the-death-toll-really-came-as-a-surprise-to-us

https://www.thelocal.se/20200310/timeline-how-the-coronavirus-has-developed-in-sweden

https://www.thelocal.se/20200414/understanding-swedens-figures-on-the-coronavirus

@RazTheOne As an American, where we're facing the Wuhan Virus with the many inherent issues that led to greater spread, not the least of which being our ultra-flawed healthcare system, it is baffling to see Sweden taking so much flak on this, especially from countries with half their population. As far as I can see, Sweden's strategy seems pretty legitimate. The truth is, people certainly are going to die during a pandemic, and sure that's a sad thing. But a nation's economy cannot survive shutdown of business. Over here, we're being told we might have to stay shut down maybe even to the end of the year. It's friggin May. That just won't do. We'll be pushing out homeless like crazy (moreso than usual, anyway), even with these stimulus checks going around here, and in turn those increases in homelessness cause further vulnerability to the virus spreading. In the end, we're all gonna have to reopen, virus or no virus. Therefore, Sweden's approach allows for you guys to combat the virus while still maintaining a functioning society. And a better economy allows for better afforts against the pandemic. It is a balancing game. So while the numbers might look bad now (mostly from early issues) the future results are what really matter. This quarantine approach that others have hinges on scientists figuring things out before our economies buckle under and take our healthcare systems with it, which they likely won't.

Now, let me just issue a diclaimer after the fact for everyone else out here. Obviously, as an American, I'm not really in any position to ridicule another nation's approach to the virus, like Denmark or whoever. And that's not really what I was going for. I'm merely saying that singling out Sweden and claiming with total certainty that they're in the wrong and your nation's approach is so much better, is utterly flawed thinking. But again, I'm a dumb American so you can take my words with a grain of salt if you like.

@RazTheOne I think it's fair to say that WHO description of the swedish response as a guide for other nations to be fair enough. The problem for Sweden in my uneducated opinion is that the comparatively ''lax'' response from the government. Formed by comparing with their neighbours who you could say was overreacting, may have made the swedes a bit too relaxed at a Critical moment.

When combined with the numerous cases of non symptomatic carriers. And you had a perfect storm of people who should have had strict isolation, being a bit too relaxed despite warnings from the government.

Compared with Norway where everyone was taking this overly serious, even in areas with recorded cases that could be counted on one hand. (My hometown had 1 case, and he had been in isolation from when he returned from a trip. And still everything pretty much locked down).

You avoid many cases thanks to ''No symptoms but i'll stay home or away from people just in case, not that i could do anything social anyway, both because everything is closed and that i'll get social pressure from everyone else.''

@RazTheOne Yes Sweden system might receive some stupid criticism, but so does other countrie's quarantines. Like Lithuania. There was/is quarantine only in name. Government called it to have more access to funds. If I can visit food shops, rent out car, unessential shops simply take order by phone (those without webservices) and they load your order in the back of your car, deliviries of unessentials working as always and etc. Some services like hairdresser, manicurers, massage parlors and others which require prolonged direct contact are forbidden by law. BUT I don't see that as real quarantine like they did in Wuhan.

I'm just utterly puzzled.
2653 deaths in Sweden, and they're patting each other in the back, saying "We're doing great! Much better than our neighbors!"

Denial has got to be a river in Sweden.

@DarkMage7280
Well on one hand looking at deaths per million it is high, looking at it like pure number then it is joke. 2653 deaths across population of 10 million? Hah...

@MiskisM
http://www.dkriesel.com/corona#norwegen compare the plots of Norway and Sweden ...

@mowny what conclusion should I do from that data? It seems so random, my only guess would be number of tests....

@MiskisM Norway's plot looks similar to Austria's, both have rather low % of deaths. Sweden has a rate closer to that of GB, but its active infections are still rising. That could become a problem later on having to stop the growth at the right time before the healthcare system capacity is reached.

@MiskisM The jokes on you really... Sure 2653 out of 10 million is low, but it is 2653 in just three months, and that is only the official numbers.
Compare the number to the one previous years, for the same time period.

@Schnakenburg It is hard to say yet. but from latest WHO numbers in 2017 from seasonal flu almost 4000 died. So yeah data is slow. Numbers inconsistent. Like in my country of 3mil we have only 44 deaths, all of them might have died anyway because all had other serious health problems. So yeah, believe whatever data you like. Like there was idiotic joke nearby me, 2 men burned to death (drinking and smoking inside most likely) but they got tested for virus before. Reason of death? Corona....

@DarkMage7280

Please post your proof that anyone of any consequence in Sweden is:

"patting each other in the back, saying "We're doing great! Much better than our neighbors!"

It seems to me this must be happening entirely in your own imagination - because I have certainly not seen anyone claim that.

But as I said - let's see what proof you can provide for this claim then.

@Nisse_Hult I wont post proof but will say:
Names of articles in my national/major sources are saying: "Sweden model is working": or "Sweden model is working?":
I just compare death rates to other countries and Sweden is almost at top...
Edit: yeah, it is at my country but people still read majors like bbc/cnn so....

@MiskisM

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by that?
Newspapers will say a lot of different things and being "almost at the top" of any list could be either good or bad - depending on how the list is formulated.

My reply to DarkMage was just to point out that his claim is simply false - I have heard no one in Sweden claim we're doing better then our neighbours.

But what I have heard and believe as well, is that it's simply way too soon to talk about "winning" or "loosing" strategies.

This will be a marathon - not a sprint - and trying to crown winners now would be like claiming the person leading a marathon after 100 meters was bound to be the winner.

It's simply not rational.

We'll see in the end how the different strategies come out - but that's months or a year or more from now.

@Nisse_Hult Yeah, I agree to all your points. Just wanted to say that in various media you can find information which is "Sweden is screwed because they dont have quarantine" or "Sweden made all right choices, saved their economy and lives". Total opposites.
P.S. I doubt it is marathon, more like endless fight, like with seasonal flu. It mutates, there are no sure vaccine against it and we haven't invented one in hundred years.

@MiskisM The swedish model is working in that:
a. Hospitals are not getting overwhelmed.
b. The curve is flattening.

On the other hand the disease has made its way into a large number of elderly homes, and that leads to a lot of casualties
Note though that one reason why swedish numbers are high is because all deaths that could be due to covid19 are reported as such. AFAIK only Sweden, Belgium and France are following this method of reporting, so we won't see the true numbers of the corona edidemic until you see the world surplus mortality, and those statistics aren't going to be fully collected and compared until 2021-2022.

Finland is starting to believe in Sweden's "herd immunity" nonsense.

All the while the Swedes pretend they're somehow better or free-er because they're willing to throw their most vulnerable demographics under the bus.

@Sisu How is it "nonsense"? It'll take maybe two years before a vaccine is ready, you can't close up your country for that long

I gotta agree with @Astrid_95
If healthcare system holds up, there's no need to impose harsher restrictions than necessary. Some people will die, unfortunately, but until hospitals are *over*crowded and capacity is exhausted, Swedish strategy works just fine.

Moreover, if vulnerable people aren't forced to go outside and can self-quarantine, that'd be the *safer* way for them, too. There will be less chances for them to get infected before herd immunity kicks in. And then chances drop even more.

And of course Sweden has the most cases and deaths per capita in Scandinavia *right now*, but guess what: these people would have been infected anyway, sooner or later. So, unless Swedish healthcare is overrun, that strategy should work for them just fine. Unfortunately, it's not readily applicable to all the countries.

But that works only if our assumptions regarding Covid-19 epidemiology are correct. If immune response isn't quite as strong as we hope, then Sweden is screwed. As well as the whole humanity, though.

@molotovinpeikko Yes, the Swedish strategy of only providing morphine to sick elderly people works just fine. And as they don't test them their deaths do not show up on the Covid statistics. Wonderful strategy indeed.

@Father_Svitjod
> Yes, the Swedish strategy of only providing morphine to sick elderly people works just fine. And as they don't test them their deaths do not show up on the Covid statistics

Are you sure? To be honest, this doesn't make any sense and sounds like a conspiracy theory. But I'm naturally not up-to-date with Swedish news on Covid. It's just that even here in Russia it's unthinkable. And we're talking Putin here, remember.

@Astrid_95 Its nonsense because we have reason to believe that people that have gotten the virus can get it again, meaning herd immunity is not an option till the vaccine.

And you are right, we can't be closed down for two years... But there is a massive difference from that fact, and to believe in the Swedish take... Far better to do as Taiwan or South Korea or Vietnam where they tests like crazy, and from that make a decision.

'@Schnakenburg' "people that have gotten the virus can get it again, meaning herd immunity is not an option till the vaccine"
If you're saying that people who recovered from coronavirus don't develop immunity, how will they get it from vaccine?

@comrade_Comrade Because a vaccine can be made to target the virus on the basic level, the cases of people getting sick again is assumed to be because of small mutations in the virus, but a normal vaccine can cover a lot of the mutations.

But it is quit possible that this virus is like the flue, and we will have to get a shot of vaccine each year.

'@Schnakenburg' basic level being what? You're suggesting that vaccine develops antibodies that go somewhere past viral capsid?

Cases or reinfection were also assumed to be caused by insufficient levels of antibodies or false negative tests.

@comrade_Comrade Basic level being the genetics of the virus.
The antibodies usually targets strains of a virus, not the virus itself, its why some viruses you can't develop immunity against by getting sick, because they mutate.

You are right, there are speculations that the reportet cases could be just that, or simply bad tests... However it is not unheard of that you can get sick of the basic same virus again later (the flue normally being the used example). Thing is, we are hearing about such cases from both China, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam, making it much more likely that it has mutated in those areas and spread again.

I don't know what is the case (and I suspect that you don't either), but I do know that vaccines can be made to target the virus even if it has to be issued every season, meaning we can get on with the daily life much more safely.

'@Schnakenburg' "Basic level being the genetics of the virus" antibodies do not attach themselves to genetic code. At worst Sweden is going to get mostly immune to strain local to Europe, at best there will be an immunity or at least some sort of cross-protection from several strains. Either way, their graph of daily cases doesn't look like a hellscape it's advertised to be.

" However it is not unheard of that you can get sick of the basic same virus again later "
There is difference between being sick and being tested positive. Last time I heard, cases in South Korea were positive tests to virus that was already rendered ineffective by immune response. Speculations aren't evidence.

"Seasonal flu" can be any variation of several distinct viruses. On top of that, immunity that some vaccines provide may last only for several months, therefore seasonal shots are aimed at the stains most likely to propagate during the year and have limited effectiveness.

@comrade_Comrade Less than 3% of swedish population is speculated to have been infected, you get basic herd immunity at 60%... Thats why those numbers are a worry.

@Schnakenburg, well, yes.
So what you are saying, even with reckless Swedish strategy less than 3% had been infected. That means population in other countries is even less immune. So either all the others are locked down until vaccine comes (and at least vulnerable population is vaccinated) — and that is autumn at best — or they open up eventually and get hit once again.

'@Schnakenburg' well, as long as their ICU facilities are not filled over capacity they're doing fine. People pretend like going into lockdown will eliminate the virus, but a month or two before the advertised idea of lockdowns was "to flatten the curve", Sweden seems to do this so far.

@comrade_Comrade Well compared with yesterday, Denmark had 9 deaths, Sweden 99.
Yes it is about flattening the curve, and Sweden has capacity still, but not locally, in Stockholm as an example they have had to transport patients out to other hospitals, that means that while they are still in clear nationally, they failed in their major city, with a higher death toll.

I don't know how assumes a lockdown would eliminate the virus, sounds more like a strawman than anything... Its what one does, if one has no real idea as to what will happen, and get some time to work it out. In Denmark a clear lack of testing and equipment meant the gov locked the country down, efforts were put in place to solve those shortfalls, and we are starting to open up again... Perhaps it is too early, perhaps we should have done so a month ago, that doesn't matter.

What makes me question the Swedes is their very high deathtoll compared, and people that assume that Sweden has done fine economically, when they as an export economy haven't been able to sell much anyway.

'@Schnakenburg' moving people to other hospitals is preferable to not having facilities or equipment at all. Failing to contain infection so contagious in a major city is not a big surprise. Interesting example was New York, where, apparently, majority of cases requiring hospitalizations were people self-isolating at home.

Sweden's decision to not close the border early on was probably a wrong call, but aside from that I suppose that difference in outcomes is down to demographics, success in tracing contacts of infected persons, and luck. The biggest issue is that with virus so infectious any country is just one asymptomatic carrier away from having a second peak.

For a lot of people in US and UK Sweden's example is positive not in that their economy doing good or not, but in that it didn't spawn a horde of bureaucrats putting people under effectively house arrest and surveillance without court order.

@Schnakenburg

> Well compared with yesterday, Denmark had 9 deaths, Sweden 99.

It sounds weird, but it doesn't tell us anything, really. Not when the whole approach is different. What we _can_ compare, is a mortality rate, to see how health care performs. Total number of deaths (per capita) will be the ultimate measure of success (or failure), but these data will be available only after the pandemic.

@molotovinpeikko True, hence why I brought forth the number of deaths on that day.
Sweden is roughly twice as big in population to Denmark, so that gives you a comparison.

But you are wrong on the claim that we will only have the data after the pandemic, we get regular updates on that... What we can't do is change the behavior and see a change right away, unless a better form of treatment or cure is found. Otherwise roughly 2-4 weeks has to go before we see a result.

What the number tells us is that on that day, Sweden had roughly 5 times the mortality rate... That points to a significant harder pressed hospitalsystem, it also shows that despite having a smart population, a virus gets significant easier options to do its work, if the nation stay open, and testing is not made in large order.

@Schnakenburg
Apologies for replying to the "wrong" post, SatW comment system is a mess.

> True, hence why I brought forth the number of deaths on that day.
> Sweden is roughly twice as big in population to Denmark, so that gives you a comparison … What the number tells us is that on that day, Sweden had roughly 5 times the mortality rate...

It does *not*. To compare mortality rate, we need total number of Covid cases, not just country population. And this number very much depends on number of tests conducted.

> But you are wrong on the claim that we will only have the data after the pandemic, we get regular updates on that...

No. You misunderstand my words and epidemiology in general, my friend. We won't have definitive data on mortality before pandemics end. It is statistically impossible. We can get some projections, of course. And yes, so far Sweden has higher mortality rate than Denmark. Could it be because healthcare system is overstressed? Of course! But it doesn't mean that it is. Mortality rate in Denmark is almost twice that of Norway. Does it mean that Denmark hospitals are overwhelmed, too? I don't think so.

I'd like to point out that I don't say that Sweden healthcare system works just fine — I don't know. If there aren't enough wards, this will be out in the news pretty soon, believe you me. That sort of stuff is reported even here in Russia (I doubt about state media, I only follow independent ones).

Another funny thing is that Sweden still does *much* better than UK, for example. 14% mortality rate, that's insane! They might as well burn the infected ones at stake or something.

@Astrid_95 It is nonsense because the harm that would ensue as a result of the kind of incidence of Covid-19 necessary to create herd immunity would outweigh the harm of keeping the lockdown in place. I am not talking about deaths here, but about permanently damaged lung capacity, increased viral loads, and chronic fatigue ensuing in a significant portion of survivors, including younger ones. That is not only extremely damaging to those affected but also puts a large long term strain on the economy.

Regarding the opportunity costs of the lockdown, well, two years is a rather generous estimate for your point and most likely a vaccine will be developed much sooner than that (the question is more whether it can get through the entry barriers imposed by idiotic governmental regulatory agencies that ought not to exist in the first place), and the key is really just to get the infection rate below 1, which doesn't require a complete lockdown, but even if it did indeed require locking down the country for two years, then rest assured that is indeed something that could be done without civilisational collapse (though it would probably lead to a deflationary recession, since, as we've seen in recent history, ignorance of economics is widespread and it shows in how the actions of government everywhere are uniformly incredibly stupid.)

@Astrid_95
It's not totally nonsense economy-wise, but no one is admitting Sweden is in effect sacrificing those at risk.

Then there are those dying, and there are the survivors that will live with damaged health. Reduced pulmonary function (e.g. fibrosis), lasting fatigue, kidney issues, etc. You don't really want even only 3% of your population with that kind of sh*t.

@Elina
Well... in effect, maybe. But to say there was a conscious decision to sacrifice the elderly and other vulnerable people is just not true. Measures WERE taken to protect them. Obviously the execution left a lot to be desired, given the results, but we're not sacrificing anyone on purpose.

@anksil
You as an average Swede, no. But someone who is a statsepidemiolog should know better.
This is a virus with many asymptomatic carriers. Vårdhems cannot build negative pressure isolation chambers in two days. Or even random isolation units.

So basic logic gives you little chance to protect the elderly if your staff has to commute along with asymptomatic carriers joyfully going to a restaurant.
It has nothing to do with uncareful execution. It has to do with someone telling you "it will work" when he knew it could not work. (Or he did not know because he refused to see the truth?).
Are Swedes all wearing masks like in Taiwan or Korea? No? Then stay home unless you really have to leave.

@Elina

So what are you proposing? Lock the workers in the nursing home with the elderly, as I believe has somewhat been done in Germany? I mean, it could work.

I'd like to wear a mask, but they are in very short supply - mainly, I believe, because some people are being dicks and hoarding them, vacuuming them up as soon as they appear in stores. I lack the skills and equipment to make my own (really - you don't want to see me trying to sew). I suppose I could ask around in case someone I know could make them.

I do stay home for the most part. I do need to eat, so I shop for groceries (and some meds I depend on) now and then, being careful with distancing (unfortunately a few people are not very cooperative in that department, though).

@anksil
You are among the responsible ones. Not everyone is. Today I witnessed someone coughing repeatedly in a shopping mall.

@Elina
> Then there are those dying, and there are the survivors that will live with damaged health. Reduced pulmonary function (e.g. fibrosis), lasting fatigue, kidney issues, etc. You don't really want even only 3% of your population with that kind of sh*t.

The trouble is that those who suffer permanent lung damage could have been saved only by vaccine. And we don't have one. And we won't get one until autumn at the very least. And then there's a problem of actually manufacturing and vaccinating 8 billions of people. Can we realistically stop infection from spreading until 2021? I'm not sure.

@Astrid_95
Research has suggested that a few people who get infected and survive develop antibodies. That means they can get infected again, possibly worse. Which also means herd immunity isn't going to happen, unless everybody without immunity dies first.

@Sisu
Then there's other research suggesting that the apparent reinfections were false positives. We just don't know yet.

@Sisu

People need to get into their skull that there is no such thing as a "herd immunity" strategy.
Not in Sweden, not in any country in the world.

Herd immunity is just a term for the situation when enough people form some form of immunity against a disease - and it will happen sooner or later and there is no strategy about it.

It was herd immunity that eventually saved mankind from every single deadly pandemic before we invented vaccines.

Just as today, people back then did the best they could to avoid becoming sick - but just as today some of them did anyway.

And eventually each population reached herd immunity and the pandemics petered out.

The only thing that changed this was the invention of vaccines - but since there is no vaccine against Covid-19 yet, all of mankind is back to herd immunity - whether we like it or not.

Because no country on earth can lock up it's entire population for a year or more before we hopefully have a vaccine.

Every single nation that went into lock down is now reversing those decisions - because there simply isn't another alternative.

So it's not about "Finland is starting to believe in Sweden's "herd immunity" nonsense" - it's the Finnish authorities accepting the simple fact that there is no other way to deal with this then to open up society, while doing the best you can to mitigate the consequences.

Yes - some people will get sick and some will die - but locking everyone up for a year or more is simply not possible.

@Nisse_Hult
Finnish authorities are going to force children back to school JUST TWO WEEKS before the summer vacation, apparently thinking the children won't get seriously ill.

But what about, for example, their parents who might be vulnerable? Especially if the parents work in old people's homes or in hospitals? Or even just as cashiers or other service jobs where they deal with dozens or even hundreds of people face to face every day?

The teachers are opposing the choice anyway, saying internet schooling has worked just fine, two last weeks don't matter that much whether it's web schooling or school schooling, and it's a pointless risk, and the arrangements to attempt to keep it safe would hinder the teaching even more.

If you're still limiting the amount of people who can gather up to 50 or so, why are you showing hundreds of people in same school buildings when there is another option that has worked just fine?

@Sisu What do you mean "most vulnerable"? If it is elderly, at least they are throwing themselves under buses. I see elderly sometimes go even twice a day to shop to buy apple or single fresh doughnut. Most of seniors in Lithuania have themselves or in family houses in nature, farms where they could isolate themselves. Do they go there? No, my younger friends's grandparents, my own, other, simply refuse for idiotic reason. So I say screw quarantine if people want to commit suicides, let them...

I was expecting something about "President Carrot", his press releases have been so full of comical treasures.

@routavarvas

Most of the people i know call him our Cheeto in Chief.